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[Music]

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and good evening from Philadelphia Frank

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here with another episode of UFO news

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network Sunday on a Tuesday our excuse

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me a Thursday night tonight I'm losing

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track of what day it is and let me ahead

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right on over to my co-host chant Hannah

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to introduce our very special guest for

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tonight thank you Frank yes we do have a

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special guest it is John B Alexander PhD

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is a retired senior army officer with

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nearly half a century experience in

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Special Operations intelligence and

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research and development a green beret

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combat commander Vietnam he later

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advised senior ministry of defense

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officials in Afghanistan his second

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career was at Los Alamos National

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Laboratory as the progenitor of

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non-lethal warfare he served on national

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research council army science board and

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nato studies and as an advisor to the

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National Intelligence Council and

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Special Operations Command recipient of

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the do nuclear weapons program Award of

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Excellence he was inducted into the

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Aviation Week and space technology

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laureate Hall of Fame and is listed in

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Who's Who in science and engineering

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educated at Walden University

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Harvard's JFK of government JFK School

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of Government and MIT Sloan School he

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has made presentations on all eight

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continents a former senior fellow of a

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DoD University he is author of many

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articles monographs and books including

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UFOs myths

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conspiracies and realities and reality

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denied firsthand experiences with things

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that can't happen but did welcome to our

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show John thank you for being on with us

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tonight we're doing great really look

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forward to this interview so very much I

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wanted to start off with the first

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chapter of your book reality denied

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first-hand experiences the things that

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can't happen sure did regarding

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skinwalker ranch I went back to 1995

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with Bob Bigelow

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do you mind expanding upon that topic

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well it's a very very strange place

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several books been written on it

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back to the schedule that Jeremy Cordell

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has put out you'll find me in there it

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is

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and I said a very unusual place where

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multiple phenomena occur they are

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literally mind-boggling my personal

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experience I was with Bob Bigelow the

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day that he bought it and was the first

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one from mid since the National

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Institute for discovery science to

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please spend a night I spent that night

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up on the ridge

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nothing dramatic happened at that time

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but over the years a number of very

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spectacular events happened that are

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just beyond any rational explanation we

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can cover some of those if you wish but

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the big problem was that it it kept

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morphing I understand that some of the

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phenomena are still going on I might

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point out that these predated needs Bob

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bottoms the ranch and bids exploring it

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and probably has a history in decades if

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not centuries of anomalous phenomena yes

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I wanted to ask for you a little bit

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about that phenomena there was a term

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that you had used earlier when I spoke

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to you yesterday regarding a certain

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kind of sentient phenomena do you mind

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talking about that not at all it's a

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term that I coined and it it came about

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after spending considerable amount of

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time literally years on and off at the

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ranch and noticing how the phenomena

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changed I mentioned is not totally new

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people in the study various phenomena

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and known about what the trickster panco

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Co these sorts of entities appear

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throughout literature around the world

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but the point was that you know we were

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we had the ranch it was fully

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instrumented they had you know cameras

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going 24/7 and people up there

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repeatedly and lots of engineering work

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was done and what I noticed was that the

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phenomena was almost one step ahead and

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when I said it was that's a precognitive

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sentient phenomena precognitive was that

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it seemed to know how we were going to

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respond to any type of presentation

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before it happened

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sentian it is certainly smart and very

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phenomenological I know if you want to

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cover some of the things that happen

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there just to give people a feel for you

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know the breadth of things because you

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know we had things from you know creepy

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crawlers UFOs voice poltergeists

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orbs just almost any phenomena you can

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imagine that was occurring there yes we

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would love to share about that if you

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don't mind going into those phenomena

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the various phenomena that you're just

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described well there as many people now

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know very German and his wife owned the

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ranch and that's who was bought from one

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of the first things that happened when

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Terry bought the ranch and by the way

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nothing to remember this is always a

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working ranch it was never just a

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laboratory per se we were taking

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advantage of the ongoing situation but

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anyway he's out there one day and he

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sees big dog kind of trotting across the

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field and as it got closer it's a little

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that's not a dog that's a wolf and as it

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got closer and closer and they said well

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must be a domestic

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gated wolf and carries a big guy and

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this thing walked up to him and his head

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was like in his chest allowing the pet

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with him and all out so he goes back to

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work and he's got a small pen there with

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cattle in it and including a calf and

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you know typical metal railing and so

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what happens when the wolf reaches under

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the railing and grabs this calf from

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several hundred pound will still

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graduate by the snout and starts pulling

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it out so it raises quite a commotion

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Terry grabs a two-by-four and hits the

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wall and it does almost nothing and so

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he gets out of his he's got this captive

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there and they member of these guys are

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the ranchers carry weapons all the time

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so he had a major Magnum pistol there

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and at point-blank range

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the Inc days think a little sections

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into directly into the side of the wolf

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which should have been fatal

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Miami sorry the better does at least

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gets him to let go of the cap and he

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goes wandering off remember he's been

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mortally shot several time but he's

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still just wandering off though Jerry

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has an elk rifle in the cab and he pulls

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it out and and hits him with the because

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it was 258 grain bullet which is

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designed to bring down elk really really

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big animals and other things that

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happened is they can see chunks of flesh

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or something exiting the wall but it

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kept walking and eventually despaired

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most remarkably is they went over and

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they picked up this stop that was

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sitting on the ground

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and it was purified nope it's vacation

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normally doesn't start you know and so

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you know long after death it will so how

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you had you know purified material

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exiting apparently a living being

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again just defies explanation

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another incident that happened really on

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our watch so we knew a lot about it and

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many people would be familiar with

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cattle mutilations for instance it was

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calving season and charity by the way

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continue to work for Bob

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after mids bought the ranch so he goes

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out and he it's calving season Sunday

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morning and he goes over and he finds a

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newborn calf and what you do is you tag

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it and wear it you tag it to a client

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with with the mother he continues on few

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hundred meters and when I mentioned this

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is absolutely you know flat as a desk

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wide open you can see you know for quite

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a distance there was visual obstruction

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and he finds another newborn and he tags

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it and ways that and he comes back know

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the elapsed time is probably on 4550

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minutes so not much calf one is dead

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not only is a dad it's been Visser rated

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exsanguinated me here where the tag was

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has been sliced off it looks as if

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surgical there's about 20 pounds right

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in various weights but this is a there's

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a great deal of material that is just

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absolutely missing now when I mentioned

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exsanguination the we had our bet blues

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on sites that day and looked at it and

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so people said well the blood just went

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into the ground so I suggested and they

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went ahead and went out and got from a

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slaughterhouse equated above how much

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blood and poured it on the ground and in

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a different location but you can watch

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that and weeks later you could say yep

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blood was poured on the ground there yet

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nothing like that appeared with the cap

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and they say these events just well

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literally as you know Colin Kelleher and

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George Nath eventually written the book

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skinwalker and described as I did in

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reality denied a number of other cases

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that happened that just again just the

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description the case I'm sorry about

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that

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please continue but I do I want to jump

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in with a question well now I was just

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going to say we have a very very

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distinguished science board that is at

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will

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and in looking at you know a hard data

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it appears as if whatever happened to

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the cat happened someplace else and that

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makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

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because we know that you know again it

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was daylight minutes and whatnot but you

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cannot explain what happened to all the

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innards of a blood and all of that we

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did look at how various predators there

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are some predators in the area but how

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they kill and this fits absolutely none

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of them big cats you know killed and

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dragged off hide bodies bears

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and again this would have to have been

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done in broad daylight with the lantern

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nearby the same applies to some people

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love guessing well maybe it was poachers

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or something it did it and that just

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makes no sense and then rustlers get

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shot right right oh yeah yeah

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worse too sometimes alright now you had

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mentioned that the first night that you

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were there you didn't see anything out

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of the ordinary

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but it's been a lot of time now what was

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the strangest thing you personally

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experienced when you were there well

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I'll bail out of debt and the reason is

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we did have people there seem to be more

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sensitive than others I can't say that I

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had any really on your expense I was

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there a number of times the other things

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I want to mention and some people as I

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may have seen the interview with Jesse

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Ventura out here house and he was

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interviewing me he said well he wanted

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to go up there and you know sat unless

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it well actually you'd be pretty bored

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and I think that's true for and there

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are now tours my question and they take

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people into the area but the point is

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that yes means very very strange things

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absolutely did happen but when you

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amortize that over we had it for six

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years Terry sometime before that it's

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not like something strange pops up every

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night and as I said with a precognitive

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sentian phenomenon what we noticed was

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that means when I'm going to get more

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thing and every time that we you know

276
00:16:24,180 --> 00:16:20,470
try to study it you know it and whatever

277
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:24,190
it is it was in control and they would

278
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:27,250
say oh you'll like that try this and

279
00:16:31,860 --> 00:16:29,370
you'd get something different or

280
00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:31,870
something would happen just off-camera

281
00:16:35,980 --> 00:16:34,630
and that's one end of that and many

282
00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:35,990
other

283
00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:40,470
researchers as well we're things you set

284
00:16:45,949 --> 00:16:43,080
up cameras to capture things that should

285
00:16:48,769 --> 00:16:45,959
be there in the arm and there's other

286
00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:48,779
cases where they aren't there and they

287
00:16:53,930 --> 00:16:51,750
should be now you would mention the a

288
00:16:55,579 --> 00:16:53,940
word the amortization I think that's a

289
00:16:58,699 --> 00:16:55,589
very interesting word I've heard you use

290
00:17:00,590 --> 00:16:58,709
in connection with UFOs and that the

291
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:00,600
military is not really interested in

292
00:17:05,419 --> 00:17:03,510
them in the sense that they come up once

293
00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:05,429
in a while now and again these had very

294
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,980
incredible sightings but it really

295
00:17:11,689 --> 00:17:10,079
doesn't have that big an effect on the

296
00:17:14,510 --> 00:17:11,699
military because you know there's one

297
00:17:16,699 --> 00:17:14,520
here one there spread out over time over

298
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:16,709
the entire planet and that's why you

299
00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:18,329
were saying the military is not that

300
00:17:23,299 --> 00:17:20,970
interesting not that interested in UFOs

301
00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:23,309
are not interested in UFOs and in fact

302
00:17:27,290 --> 00:17:25,500
that is one of the things that the Lu

303
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:27,300
Elizondo has said he couldn't get

304
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:29,520
anybody interested in the subject and I

305
00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:32,010
would like to know where your thoughts

306
00:17:36,260 --> 00:17:34,470
on that I think that's a that's a pretty

307
00:17:40,010 --> 00:17:36,270
sharp comment it doesn't get made often

308
00:17:43,820 --> 00:17:40,020
and often yeah thirty years ago I

309
00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:43,830
actually ran a study much akin to what

310
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:47,790
Lou has won this time interestingly our

311
00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:51,200
findings are almost identical

312
00:17:58,870 --> 00:17:54,990
the main difference was that he was a

313
00:18:02,360 --> 00:17:58,880
actually able to get funding I was not

314
00:18:05,230 --> 00:18:02,370
my group I had people from all of the

315
00:18:12,169 --> 00:18:05,240
services from the intelligence community

316
00:18:14,090 --> 00:18:12,179
from aerospace industry they had true a

317
00:18:17,530 --> 00:18:14,100
we had to know who they were and be

318
00:18:19,419 --> 00:18:17,540
interested in the topic they had to have

319
00:18:25,570 --> 00:18:19,429
top-secret FCI

320
00:18:28,970 --> 00:18:25,580
clearances and we did meet periodically

321
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:28,980
for your suite of information that just

322
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:32,850
come into vogue at the time and so I had

323
00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:36,330
come up with a time with the advanced

324
00:18:43,130 --> 00:18:39,600
theoretical physics group thinking that

325
00:18:48,260 --> 00:18:43,140
nobody would think to ask about advanced

326
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:48,270
theoretical physics and part of the

327
00:18:52,369 --> 00:18:49,440
thing was that they

328
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:52,379
would not have any written records to be

329
00:18:58,460 --> 00:18:56,250
occurred who violated that but to make

330
00:19:03,519 --> 00:18:58,470
it very difficult to track

331
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:03,529
but now the finding new we had was that

332
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:08,129
everybody was involved knew to stay

333
00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:11,490
everybody knew you know the history and

334
00:19:15,379 --> 00:19:13,830
you know when they got down to saying

335
00:19:19,549 --> 00:19:15,389
yes oh I thought you were responsible

336
00:19:21,740 --> 00:19:19,559
for that no I thought your agency and it

337
00:19:24,039 --> 00:19:21,750
was kind of you know the bottom line and

338
00:19:27,799 --> 00:19:24,049
my view was nobody was minding the store

339
00:19:30,889 --> 00:19:27,809
that does not however mean that there

340
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:30,899
weren't periodic cases that were very

341
00:19:39,049 --> 00:19:36,720
very strong waters Rendlesham forest if

342
00:19:42,740 --> 00:19:39,059
you will is one of the Phoenix lights of

343
00:19:44,539 --> 00:19:42,750
one the northern tier sightings stated

344
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:44,549
giant where the missiles came down

345
00:19:51,379 --> 00:19:48,330
certainly others but what you said was

346
00:19:54,230 --> 00:19:51,389
exactly right the problem is yes when

347
00:19:58,340 --> 00:19:54,240
you pile leaves up it looks like a quite

348
00:20:01,419 --> 00:19:58,350
a big stack of anomalous phenomena and

349
00:20:04,610 --> 00:20:01,429
it is but when you amortize that over

350
00:20:10,519 --> 00:20:04,620
you know more than half a century in the

351
00:20:15,950 --> 00:20:10,529
world it gets to you know just Bendel's

352
00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:15,960
and surveying importance the issues then

353
00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:20,190
I had by the way I found I ended up

354
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:23,370
briefing he's the director or deputy

355
00:20:29,230 --> 00:20:26,490
director of almost three-letter agencies

356
00:20:35,869 --> 00:20:29,240
and all of that the answer was always

357
00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:35,879
the same hey we don't do that I only had

358
00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:39,990
one horribly negative experience with a

359
00:20:48,649 --> 00:20:44,220
very senior actually a formerly very

360
00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:48,659
senior official who after I gave a

361
00:20:55,519 --> 00:20:52,289
briefing on that to a science board he

362
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:55,529
comes up and screams at me you're not

363
00:20:59,730 --> 00:20:57,690
supposed to know that that's what you

364
00:21:03,030 --> 00:20:59,740
learn when you die

365
00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:03,040
there's a pic that month excuse me I

366
00:21:09,330 --> 00:21:04,660
thought we're around the science meeting

367
00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:09,340
here but now everybody else and what I

368
00:21:11,490 --> 00:21:10,960
tried to do by the way is get them

369
00:21:15,630 --> 00:21:11,500
pregnant

370
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:15,640
I mean I would always ask for something

371
00:21:24,660 --> 00:21:19,210
and almost got it and you I'm sorry go

372
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:24,670
ahead please finish it okay okay yeah

373
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:26,559
you've taken your interest in this topic

374
00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:30,490
a little further and have gotten into

375
00:21:35,130 --> 00:21:32,740
contact with experiencers including

376
00:21:37,169 --> 00:21:35,140
Christopher blood so before you go into

377
00:21:38,790 --> 00:21:37,179
that Frank I have a question from

378
00:21:42,150 --> 00:21:38,800
Rodrigo fara

379
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:42,160
she wanted me to ask John if he feels

380
00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:44,110
like there's anything underneath

381
00:21:59,340 --> 00:21:50,140
skinwalker ranch anything underneath

382
00:22:01,080 --> 00:21:59,350
skinwalker ranch that is his emotion a

383
00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:01,090
little more interesting than you might

384
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:03,960
suspect and the reason I say that is

385
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:07,890
that when they bump the ranch

386
00:22:15,810 --> 00:22:11,440
there was a government from a rancher

387
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:15,820
several interrelations back that said if

388
00:22:22,260 --> 00:22:18,640
you're going to disturb the land you had

389
00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:22,270
to notify them first and never could

390
00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:26,380
figure out what that was what they did

391
00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:28,720
do is bring in some heavy equipment and

392
00:22:35,070 --> 00:22:31,750
just start digging around just and the

393
00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:35,080
idea was let's see if we can percolate

394
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:38,110
some interest here it was not terribly

395
00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:41,110
successful but at least we're trying to

396
00:22:48,210 --> 00:22:44,260
do that but again the lava phenomenon

397
00:22:53,940 --> 00:22:48,220
was happening arm above ground it did

398
00:22:56,490 --> 00:22:53,950
not end you know at the reference sites

399
00:23:00,690 --> 00:22:56,500
of the Lance itself and obviously things

400
00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:00,700
going on like the Garcia ranch to the

401
00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:04,630
east and in the general area and again

402
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:07,390
this has been known you know by the

403
00:23:12,299 --> 00:23:09,490
Native Americans in the area

404
00:23:15,419 --> 00:23:12,309
a long long time and it was an area that

405
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:15,429
many of them was you just don't go there

406
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:18,610
I wanted to mention I contacted the

407
00:23:23,340 --> 00:23:21,010
superintendent Thomas winter tenants can

408
00:23:26,669 --> 00:23:23,350
walk a ranch today who had known for a

409
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:26,679
while and he did share with me that

410
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:33,250
currently the new owner is well he did

411
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:34,720
say they are witnessing and capturing

412
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:36,610
many anomalous events the ranch is

413
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:38,770
actively involved in scientific related

414
00:23:45,390 --> 00:23:42,450
research and the ownership has invested

415
00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:45,400
significant resources in order to find

416
00:23:51,570 --> 00:23:48,280
more answers regarding paranormal

417
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:51,580
related research why don't you go ahead

418
00:23:57,980 --> 00:23:55,210
and move along to the very fascinating

419
00:24:00,180 --> 00:23:57,990
story about Christopher Bledsoe and

420
00:24:03,060 --> 00:24:00,190
yourself regarding the personal

421
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:03,070
experience that we both had together I

422
00:24:07,530 --> 00:24:06,250
think was he at Mount Charleston yet and

423
00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:07,540
some friends were visiting from Las

424
00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:09,040
Vegas and there was a temporal

425
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:12,190
experience and it worked well that's

426
00:24:18,780 --> 00:24:15,760
much much later that we did go up on

427
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:18,790
Mount Charleston when he was here the

428
00:24:23,430 --> 00:24:21,250
interesting piece there as I was we were

429
00:24:27,090 --> 00:24:23,440
screwing around what are they trying to

430
00:24:31,980 --> 00:24:27,100
you know evoke Europos sightings or

431
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:31,990
something and we had had balloons with

432
00:24:38,190 --> 00:24:34,330
chem-lights and stuff like that put him

433
00:24:40,950 --> 00:24:38,200
up in the air but what was investors and

434
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:40,960
i took a number of pictures this was

435
00:24:46,940 --> 00:24:43,330
flash photography because late at night

436
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:46,950
very cold we're about 9,000 foot level

437
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:49,690
November and probably around freezing

438
00:24:56,130 --> 00:24:54,010
temperatures that will show that there

439
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:56,140
there were pictures that were just very

440
00:25:03,720 --> 00:24:59,679
straight and expect you're something it

441
00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:03,730
looks Michael in the picture did not

442
00:25:12,690 --> 00:25:08,230
sure what it was now in the main story

443
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:12,700
in the Christian story is ongoing this

444
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:16,410
is not something that has stopped and

445
00:25:22,570 --> 00:25:20,890
periodically once a month every week or

446
00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:22,580
so I would get

447
00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:25,400
either still photos or videos of things

448
00:25:32,830 --> 00:25:27,500
that were happening there most of this

449
00:25:36,490 --> 00:25:32,840
was orb like things now have you had

450
00:25:38,140 --> 00:25:36,500
Chris on so the basic story is no one we

451
00:25:39,940 --> 00:25:38,150
know it a little bit we've spoken to him

452
00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:39,950
privately but he has not done the show

453
00:25:45,550 --> 00:25:43,430
and I didn't get to him today and he did

454
00:25:48,580 --> 00:25:45,560
tell me to tell you hello just so you

455
00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:48,590
know that he'll absolutely thrilled your

456
00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:49,780
honor tonight

457
00:25:57,940 --> 00:25:53,150
yeah great family by the way and they

458
00:26:00,970 --> 00:25:57,950
have suffered because of publicity and

459
00:26:03,690 --> 00:26:00,980
not only from the local folks there they

460
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:03,700
do not have a lot of praise from MUFON

461
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:08,570
some of the UFO investigators that had

462
00:26:21,550 --> 00:26:14,690
come in the initial story begins some

463
00:26:23,710 --> 00:26:21,560
seven its we do they go he has some and

464
00:26:25,810 --> 00:26:23,720
a couple of other guys go down to the

465
00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:25,820
Cape Fear River which is not far from

466
00:26:32,410 --> 00:26:27,860
where they lived at the time that sense

467
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:32,420
move and they're they're going to go

468
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:37,130
fishing and so is it getting dark they

469
00:26:47,130 --> 00:26:42,910
build a huge fire and Chris decides that

470
00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:47,140
he's going to walk back up the hill and

471
00:26:55,150 --> 00:26:49,820
there's kind of a wooded area four to

472
00:26:57,610 --> 00:26:55,160
three hundred meters and mum fields is

473
00:27:01,690 --> 00:26:57,620
this a transitional area I my dad but

474
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:01,700
you have between you know towns and

475
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:07,970
rural and whatnot so he goes up and he

476
00:27:13,570 --> 00:27:09,890
says that he goes up the hill he sees

477
00:27:17,890 --> 00:27:13,580
these two huge glowing objects in the

478
00:27:20,290 --> 00:27:17,900
sky and most probably some missing time

479
00:27:22,450 --> 00:27:20,300
and that makes missing time and whatnot

480
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:22,460
I've got a clunk head because when Chris

481
00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:24,850
tells the story it literally takes hours

482
00:27:30,490 --> 00:27:28,430
which I have on tape but there's a

483
00:27:31,950 --> 00:27:30,500
personal angle I'll get to in just a

484
00:27:36,130 --> 00:27:31,960
minute

485
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:36,140
so anyway he thinks it is Madonna

486
00:27:42,130 --> 00:27:38,330
about 20 minutes and come back down the

487
00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:42,140
hill the fire is just about burned down

488
00:27:48,730 --> 00:27:44,150
and had been roaring and you know

489
00:27:51,940 --> 00:27:48,740
schedule you know run for hours trucks

490
00:27:55,810 --> 00:27:51,950
have been moved and his son is missing

491
00:27:57,790 --> 00:27:55,820
and he goes you know where what's

492
00:28:00,970 --> 00:27:57,800
happening and well you've been gone for

493
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:00,980
hours it's now about eleven o'clock and

494
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:05,120
they go up walk up the hill I kind of

495
00:28:10,540 --> 00:28:07,130
truncate some of this but anyway they

496
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:10,550
find Chris jr. who's hiding and out

497
00:28:17,820 --> 00:28:14,720
there behind some trees and he said he's

498
00:28:21,190 --> 00:28:17,830
been chased by some very unusual

499
00:28:25,150 --> 00:28:21,200
creatures of some kind and scared to

500
00:28:27,550 --> 00:28:25,160
death so they gather handle up they go

501
00:28:30,130 --> 00:28:27,560
back down and there's now some more UFOs

502
00:28:34,330 --> 00:28:30,140
that are up and down across the river

503
00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:34,340
throw everything in the car go dipping

504
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:38,390
off a number of things happen but he

505
00:28:46,150 --> 00:28:43,090
finally gets home and Chris sees

506
00:28:50,230 --> 00:28:46,160
something peering in the window of his

507
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:50,240
house now the area that he lived in had

508
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:53,530
several acres it was quite a big

509
00:29:00,670 --> 00:28:56,450
backyard to it if you will so he goes

510
00:29:04,330 --> 00:29:00,680
out he's taking it and whatever it is

511
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:04,340
starts chasing him and he runs off and

512
00:29:10,750 --> 00:29:07,850
finally gets kind of exhausted and he

513
00:29:13,930 --> 00:29:10,760
turns around and he has a telepathic

514
00:29:19,390 --> 00:29:13,940
conversation that says okay you got me

515
00:29:23,050 --> 00:29:19,400
and the preacher says to him you don't

516
00:29:25,690 --> 00:29:23,060
understand we're here to help and about

517
00:29:30,670 --> 00:29:25,700
con time Chris jr. shows up and whatever

518
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:30,680
the critter was she disappears fast

519
00:29:39,550 --> 00:29:36,290
forward next day this is around noon and

520
00:29:41,290 --> 00:29:39,560
he says gee I haven't taken my medicine

521
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:41,300
turns out that he had had Crohn's

522
00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:46,970
disease for 12 years and whatever it was

523
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:47,560
that

524
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:53,770
occurred has never taken another kill

525
00:30:02,850 --> 00:29:55,810
first of everybody knows Crohn's it's

526
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:02,860
very debilitating paintings and so other

527
00:30:07,430 --> 00:30:05,850
healing sorts of things are taking place

528
00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:07,440
um

529
00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:12,640
about this and it had interviewed him so

530
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:16,870
we go my wife and I to visit the family

531
00:30:24,210 --> 00:30:21,760
for a few days and what happened then is

532
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:24,220
we go down the Cape Fear River late in

533
00:30:28,740 --> 00:30:26,710
the afternoon again getting along

534
00:30:31,020 --> 00:30:28,750
towards dark and he does the same thing

535
00:30:34,860 --> 00:30:31,030
shows us where the various things happen

536
00:30:39,210 --> 00:30:34,870
we come back up the hill Victoria and

537
00:30:41,820 --> 00:30:39,220
Emmeline just water get in the car and

538
00:30:46,410 --> 00:30:41,830
they're talking and christen are leaning

539
00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:46,420
against the fender and he's describing

540
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:48,670
where things happen and all of a sudden

541
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:53,520
he stops as oh I think they're here and

542
00:31:00,090 --> 00:30:56,890
within the next 10 to 15 seconds saying

543
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:00,100
literally pops into view above us and

544
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:03,010
when zipping off which is the second

545
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:05,890
time ever that same vehicle make a point

546
00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:08,770
as it did not fly in from someplace and

547
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:11,440
it was some people suggest it was an

548
00:31:17,550 --> 00:31:14,230
iridium player that definitely been

549
00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:17,560
eliminated as a possibility but the

550
00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:20,260
point was that the temporal relationship

551
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:23,380
between him saying oh I think they're

552
00:31:29,610 --> 00:31:25,570
here and this thing happening I mean

553
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:29,620
they certainly got my attention I wanted

554
00:31:33,540 --> 00:31:31,810
to let you know what Chris said because

555
00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:33,550
I talked to him about your coming on

556
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:36,580
tonight and the story that you were

557
00:31:42,990 --> 00:31:40,960
going to tell and he said this I can

558
00:31:45,570 --> 00:31:43,000
never forget that evening because it

559
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:45,580
truly changed me I was praying silently

560
00:31:50,970 --> 00:31:48,850
as we got to the car right at dark that

561
00:31:54,690 --> 00:31:50,980
I would be able to share this wonderful

562
00:31:56,220 --> 00:31:54,700
experience with John and he also did

563
00:31:58,260 --> 00:31:56,230
want me to share with you that he has

564
00:32:01,180 --> 00:31:58,270
nothing but the deepest respect for you

565
00:32:07,299 --> 00:32:01,190
and he's very grateful to

566
00:32:09,339 --> 00:32:07,309
- no you well the thing here is I mean I

567
00:32:11,710 --> 00:32:09,349
had met him before and listen to the

568
00:32:15,339 --> 00:32:11,720
story and I'd practically put it in my

569
00:32:17,979 --> 00:32:15,349
well believed because there were so many

570
00:32:22,419 --> 00:32:17,989
things going on there you go come on

571
00:32:26,889 --> 00:32:22,429
you know how can this stuff be true and

572
00:32:32,619 --> 00:32:26,899
then when it happened to me I go whoa we

573
00:32:34,210 --> 00:32:32,629
need to seriously reevaluate there were

574
00:32:37,419 --> 00:32:34,220
some other things that happened back at

575
00:32:40,389 --> 00:32:37,429
the house as well that indicated that

576
00:32:42,879 --> 00:32:40,399
there was something very very unusual

577
00:32:44,649 --> 00:32:42,889
going in that space now I've got to

578
00:32:48,009 --> 00:32:44,659
mention one of the things that happened

579
00:32:53,169 --> 00:32:48,019
is it certainly made the family very

580
00:32:56,379 --> 00:32:53,179
very close just super people and like I

581
00:32:58,960 --> 00:32:56,389
say they have been abused not only by

582
00:33:02,619 --> 00:32:58,970
their you know people near who do not

583
00:33:05,259 --> 00:33:02,629
appreciate weirdness being described

584
00:33:08,739 --> 00:33:05,269
there as what a number of the

585
00:33:12,099 --> 00:33:08,749
researchers that have taken advantage of

586
00:33:13,539 --> 00:33:12,109
them yeah I think what's really

587
00:33:15,460 --> 00:33:13,549
interesting it sounds like you

588
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:15,470
personally I had other experiences

589
00:33:19,450 --> 00:33:17,690
hanging around with Kristen you did it's

590
00:33:23,169 --> 00:33:19,460
gonna walk a ranch that's the way it

591
00:33:27,249 --> 00:33:23,179
sounds to me anyway is that about right

592
00:33:29,979 --> 00:33:27,259
yeah it is trying to save and go back to

593
00:33:33,129 --> 00:33:29,989
the ranch somebody you know Eric Davis

594
00:33:35,499 --> 00:33:33,139
who was one of the guys who worked with

595
00:33:38,109 --> 00:33:35,509
us and he seemed to be more sensitive

596
00:33:44,249 --> 00:33:38,119
the number of things sort of happened

597
00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:44,259
around him that the calmer I necessarily

598
00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:46,849
experienced topics a they want some

599
00:33:51,909 --> 00:33:49,849
things over experience but yeah they're

600
00:33:56,889 --> 00:33:51,919
do and one of the things I asked Chris

601
00:34:00,849 --> 00:33:56,899
about is whether or not the phenomena

602
00:34:03,099 --> 00:34:00,859
were located geographically or whether

603
00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:03,109
it's on him he thinks it's him and he

604
00:34:08,730 --> 00:34:06,049
has followed around and as I said he has

605
00:34:13,730 --> 00:34:08,740
moved now and continues to have other

606
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:13,740
experiences and I also see that

607
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:15,690
in our notes that day you want to talk a

608
00:34:21,619 --> 00:34:19,440
little bit about psychokinesis and we've

609
00:34:22,940 --> 00:34:21,629
got a nice picture of you we're hanging

610
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:22,950
out with a uri geller

611
00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:25,649
and your website that's in our slideshow

612
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:28,020
and tell us a little bit about that you

613
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:29,490
know early a little bit know a little

614
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:30,210
bit about that

615
00:34:39,770 --> 00:34:33,200
psychokinesis so tell us more about that

616
00:34:42,530 --> 00:34:39,780
well I had known already for decades and

617
00:34:44,210 --> 00:34:42,540
in fact if you saw The Secret Life of

618
00:34:49,299 --> 00:34:44,220
Laura Geller with little film you'll see

619
00:34:51,740 --> 00:34:49,309
me in there oh yeah yeah and probably

620
00:34:57,049 --> 00:34:51,750
equally important here was a guy had my

621
00:34:58,730 --> 00:34:57,059
name of Jack Hulk I know the name but

622
00:35:02,359 --> 00:34:58,740
you're gonna why don't you close it yeah

623
00:35:03,710 --> 00:35:02,369
yeah what's your close in on that my

624
00:35:06,290 --> 00:35:03,720
understanding is he was an aerospace

625
00:35:09,770 --> 00:35:06,300
engineer at McDonnell Douglas and had a

626
00:35:13,339 --> 00:35:09,780
lot of PK or spoon bending parties as

627
00:35:18,559 --> 00:35:13,349
you do as well jack is the one who

628
00:35:20,839 --> 00:35:18,569
created the we call PK MB or the metal

629
00:35:24,289 --> 00:35:20,849
bending parties so he also called it

630
00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:24,299
warm forming and what had happened is

631
00:35:29,329 --> 00:35:28,020
that I was working with him he also was

632
00:35:32,329 --> 00:35:29,339
interested in a number of other

633
00:35:36,049 --> 00:35:32,339
phenomena as well like remote viewing in

634
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:36,059
that but he had looked at what Marie was

635
00:35:43,339 --> 00:35:39,599
doing and really was definitely the

636
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:43,349
model for this and so he put together

637
00:35:52,220 --> 00:35:48,630
the TK party have an experience in fact

638
00:35:55,549 --> 00:35:52,230
in the book I've got a how to what to

639
00:35:58,760 --> 00:35:55,559
what to do with the instructions archer

640
00:36:01,569 --> 00:35:58,770
alumnus and he had 100 now he was an

641
00:36:05,089 --> 00:36:01,579
engineer and as an engineering veteran

642
00:36:07,549 --> 00:36:05,099
debt collector and he kept track up

643
00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:07,559
until his death just of all of the

644
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:11,609
parties that had had taken place and the

645
00:36:18,109 --> 00:36:14,400
point was that periodically these things

646
00:36:22,340 --> 00:36:18,119
would you know meddle with them now my

647
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:22,350
introduction I was with salmon

648
00:36:28,970 --> 00:36:26,250
Colonel them at enscombe Intelligence

649
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:28,980
and Security Command and we heard about

650
00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:34,290
these things and so he used to he was

651
00:36:38,810 --> 00:36:36,780
working on a major classified program

652
00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:38,820
for another agency but he would come to

653
00:36:45,860 --> 00:36:42,540
town periodically so arranged to have

654
00:36:49,550 --> 00:36:45,870
you had the first PK party that we went

655
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:49,560
to said boy that's really interesting so

656
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:51,690
I asked him to do another one I notified

657
00:37:01,840 --> 00:36:54,930
my boss and some ammo that was general

658
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:01,850
Stubblebine and so we arranged to have

659
00:37:07,790 --> 00:37:05,310
living in an apartment in Northern

660
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:07,800
Virginia at the time so we had a number

661
00:37:13,460 --> 00:37:10,730
of folks over anybody knows the head

662
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:13,470
history of these things and rayappa

663
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:17,610
Horesh was there and Gaiman was there

664
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:20,130
who becomes very important and a number

665
00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:23,310
of others that we're very interested in

666
00:37:33,860 --> 00:37:26,870
psychic phenomena so the point is that

667
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:33,870
we're doing the PK party and we're

668
00:37:40,940 --> 00:37:36,810
double mine is sitting directly across

669
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:40,950
from hand Gaiman who was then a very

670
00:37:49,790 --> 00:37:48,090
active medium and behold when you get to

671
00:37:52,130 --> 00:37:49,800
the advanced what we call the Advanced

672
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:52,140
Course this is where you're holding up

673
00:37:58,880 --> 00:37:56,490
the pair of match fourth and she's

674
00:38:02,140 --> 00:37:58,890
holding it up sitting across from Bert

675
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:02,150
and this thing drops a full 90 degrees

676
00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:06,510
again no physical force whatsoever and

677
00:38:18,820 --> 00:38:11,910
that's anywhere oh now were you able to

678
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:18,830
do any utensil bending yourself well

679
00:38:23,570 --> 00:38:21,810
coming you know what this is the

680
00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:23,580
physician would gave us the impetus so I

681
00:38:32,090 --> 00:38:28,950
started doing PK parties and someone

682
00:38:33,780 --> 00:38:32,100
with very very high levels various

683
00:38:36,660 --> 00:38:33,790
agencies and

684
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:36,670
Berggren have we had love in we had the

685
00:38:43,140 --> 00:38:38,650
INSCOM was an organization that was

686
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:43,150
global in nature so we had there were

687
00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:45,730
Americans but stationed literally around

688
00:38:50,670 --> 00:38:47,560
the world and every quarter they would

689
00:38:52,830 --> 00:38:50,680
come together to discuss plans and

690
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:52,840
remember this is the bad old days okay

691
00:39:01,130 --> 00:38:56,170
we're talking about you know targeting

692
00:39:06,570 --> 00:39:01,140
the Soviet Union and one up and so we

693
00:39:08,850 --> 00:39:06,580
conducted a number of these party and

694
00:39:10,890 --> 00:39:08,860
the point where they kept going and

695
00:39:13,770 --> 00:39:10,900
we're going to bend tank barrels and say

696
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:13,780
no I'm more interested in electrons low

697
00:39:19,950 --> 00:39:15,970
number computers are just really

698
00:39:23,130 --> 00:39:19,960
cranking up at this time so all I got to

699
00:39:26,460 --> 00:39:23,140
do is to move you know very small amount

700
00:39:28,770 --> 00:39:26,470
of energy move electrons and whatnot and

701
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:28,780
the other thing was that we would bring

702
00:39:34,380 --> 00:39:30,850
these commanders they were mostly

703
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:34,390
Colonels few generals to lower ranking

704
00:39:42,510 --> 00:39:39,010
people not much so we had this

705
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:42,520
particular session at the Xerox Center

706
00:39:50,580 --> 00:39:46,270
so we were sequestered fortunately we

707
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:50,590
had our shrink with us and so what

708
00:39:57,420 --> 00:39:52,690
happened is I'm in a horse shape and I

709
00:40:02,400 --> 00:39:57,430
do the beginning session taking them

710
00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:02,410
through the process and the most amazing

711
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:05,200
thing that I ever personally witnessed

712
00:40:10,020 --> 00:40:06,250
and this arena

713
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:10,030
happened that evening I'm sitting there

714
00:40:17,310 --> 00:40:12,400
again I can't see everybody and I hear

715
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:17,320
these guys yell mmm this Fork is over a

716
00:40:25,650 --> 00:40:20,110
full 90 degrees

717
00:40:27,090 --> 00:40:25,660
I was little trepidatious because that's

718
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:27,100
understand there were a lot of people

719
00:40:32,340 --> 00:40:29,920
who did not like the idea that we were

720
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:32,350
doing these things but because of Burt's

721
00:40:40,590 --> 00:40:35,290
rank you know that they kind of had to

722
00:40:43,230 --> 00:40:40,600
attend but as I might mention behind him

723
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:43,240
the GS 18 it would be a three-star

724
00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:45,370
equivalent science advisor who had seen

725
00:40:49,720 --> 00:40:46,190
that happen

726
00:40:54,819 --> 00:40:49,730
and then with all of us watching this

727
00:41:01,809 --> 00:40:54,829
bent came back up two uprights and back

728
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:01,819
down again and then halfway yep and I

729
00:41:07,089 --> 00:41:04,490
can look at them right now

730
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:07,099
it scared the crap out of the guy who

731
00:41:13,569 --> 00:41:09,680
did it who put them down and said I wish

732
00:41:16,059 --> 00:41:13,579
that hadn't happened but the point is

733
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:16,069
and that's the only time I've seen metal

734
00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:20,720
wave like that but again absolutely no

735
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:24,230
physical force applied the guy is

736
00:41:32,650 --> 00:41:27,530
literally holding them you know at the

737
00:41:36,339 --> 00:41:32,660
base of the fork I mean and our point

738
00:41:39,210 --> 00:41:36,349
was the key issues cause people think

739
00:41:43,839 --> 00:41:39,220
you know what's the practicality of it

740
00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:43,849
and it was not metal bending the point

741
00:41:48,010 --> 00:41:45,710
to them was remember this is an

742
00:41:52,029 --> 00:41:48,020
Intelligence Agency were targeting

743
00:41:55,029 --> 00:41:52,039
Soviet Union right was just because you

744
00:41:56,370 --> 00:41:55,039
hear things you don't understand don't

745
00:41:59,319 --> 00:41:56,380
disregard it

746
00:42:01,720 --> 00:41:59,329
because we had been blindsided several

747
00:42:04,359 --> 00:42:01,730
times now people remember us puttan for

748
00:42:06,789 --> 00:42:04,369
instance and there were several things

749
00:42:12,190 --> 00:42:06,799
that the Soviets had done that caught us

750
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:12,200
quite by surprise and in some cases we

751
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:14,720
actually had the information but it had

752
00:42:20,260 --> 00:42:17,450
been disregarded because we can't do

753
00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:20,270
that so we're so they can't either

754
00:42:27,099 --> 00:42:23,630
right right and so it was more of a

755
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:27,109
running perspective you know don't don't

756
00:42:34,690 --> 00:42:31,450
disregard data just based on your

757
00:42:36,309 --> 00:42:34,700
restricted belief system that was sort

758
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:36,319
of the same kind of thinking involved in

759
00:42:41,470 --> 00:42:40,210
the remote viewing program - is it not

760
00:42:45,930 --> 00:42:41,480
yeah

761
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:45,940
and people are the same ones

762
00:42:51,279 --> 00:42:48,770
well the remote doing was much more

763
00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:51,289
targeted of course and a much bigger

764
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:53,990
program because they were you know fully

765
00:42:56,569 --> 00:42:55,970
funded and people know about what

766
00:43:02,120 --> 00:42:56,579
happened

767
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:02,130
SR I and I would evolve from that so he

768
00:43:12,799 --> 00:43:09,359
finally met its demise in 95 but I might

769
00:43:15,489 --> 00:43:12,809
go into this guy that hosts his flaw of

770
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:15,499
the Joe mcmoneagle who was remote viewer

771
00:43:23,539 --> 00:43:20,640
0:01 in one of the real classic patients

772
00:43:27,499 --> 00:43:23,549
in remote doing that directly applies to

773
00:43:30,469 --> 00:43:27,509
the formal discussion was that he was

774
00:43:34,279 --> 00:43:30,479
given a target did not know what it was

775
00:43:39,079 --> 00:43:34,289
and gave a general explanation then they

776
00:43:43,549 --> 00:43:39,089
showed him some satellite photos and

777
00:43:45,949 --> 00:43:43,559
said okay it's in a building can you

778
00:43:49,189 --> 00:43:45,959
tell us what's going on inside the

779
00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:49,199
building and he came back with the most

780
00:43:55,849 --> 00:43:53,400
startling information about a brand new

781
00:43:58,969 --> 00:43:55,859
submarine and there were many attributes

782
00:44:01,969 --> 00:43:58,979
of learning for instance the missiles

783
00:44:06,289 --> 00:44:01,979
were forward of the sail yeah it was

784
00:44:09,259 --> 00:44:06,299
double hulled it was you know huge and

785
00:44:11,390 --> 00:44:09,269
whatnot and so we sent a tour you know

786
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:11,400
the information of the boat version they

787
00:44:17,209 --> 00:44:14,670
just basic as @bf you know you can't do

788
00:44:19,130 --> 00:44:17,219
that if you had the submarine of the

789
00:44:22,279 --> 00:44:19,140
size they're describing when it went to

790
00:44:23,059 --> 00:44:22,289
depth that would crush is this is

791
00:44:26,779 --> 00:44:23,069
impossible

792
00:44:29,029 --> 00:44:26,789
a few months later

793
00:44:30,999 --> 00:44:29,039
sighs part of the sudden lights came on

794
00:44:34,339 --> 00:44:31,009
and there is the typhoon-class submarine

795
00:44:36,499 --> 00:44:34,349
we just don't think of suddenly and yes

796
00:44:38,959 --> 00:44:36,509
they did have a titanium double hull

797
00:44:42,829 --> 00:44:38,969
submarine but this was forward in the

798
00:44:45,859 --> 00:44:42,839
sail etcetera etcetera and this is the

799
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:45,869
problem was that Joe had accurately

800
00:44:53,419 --> 00:44:49,650
described many aspects of it only to

801
00:44:56,539 --> 00:44:53,429
have that you know basically part of the

802
00:44:58,759 --> 00:44:56,549
way because our boat builders said we

803
00:45:02,809 --> 00:44:58,769
can't do that so we got to assume they

804
00:45:05,479 --> 00:45:02,819
can't write they could there was also a

805
00:45:07,999 --> 00:45:05,489
great remote viewing hit that has been

806
00:45:09,650 --> 00:45:08,009
talked about where one of the viewers I

807
00:45:12,890 --> 00:45:09,660
can't recall which one or if that

808
00:45:16,069 --> 00:45:12,900
was even ever named but we're a Soviet

809
00:45:18,589 --> 00:45:16,079
spy plane had crashed in Africa and of

810
00:45:21,099 --> 00:45:18,599
course we obviously want to get our

811
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:21,109
hands on that for reverse engineering

812
00:45:28,549 --> 00:45:24,720
purposes and the viewer was able to

813
00:45:31,539 --> 00:45:28,559
locate that crashed plane in Africa yeah

814
00:45:35,150 --> 00:45:31,549
that's a pretty well known case of the

815
00:45:39,170 --> 00:45:35,160
most dramatic aspect of that is that

816
00:45:42,770 --> 00:45:39,180
that was actually revealed by Jimmy

817
00:45:46,370 --> 00:45:42,780
Carter yeah that it was supposed to be

818
00:45:48,770 --> 00:45:46,380
classified and all that and he came out

819
00:45:53,270 --> 00:45:48,780
and talked about how they actually found

820
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:53,280
the craft and beat-beat the Soviets to

821
00:45:59,029 --> 00:45:56,730
recovery are you were talking on another

822
00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:59,039
show about an interesting book called

823
00:46:03,859 --> 00:46:00,960
the psychic discoveries behind the Iron

824
00:46:05,390 --> 00:46:03,869
Curtain regarding the Soviet Union do

825
00:46:09,529 --> 00:46:05,400
you mind talking just a little bit about

826
00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:09,539
that well what's so standard Schroeder's

827
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:14,880
book and I guess the point was they

828
00:46:20,420 --> 00:46:18,450
really did catch interest in the new

829
00:46:22,339 --> 00:46:20,430
absolutely I think many people were

830
00:46:25,339 --> 00:46:22,349
quite surprised to hear about the

831
00:46:28,430 --> 00:46:25,349
intensity of the work that was going on

832
00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:28,440
behind the Iron Curtain I might mention

833
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:30,960
and it was 92

834
00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:34,319
Burton and I went to dinner in

835
00:46:40,220 --> 00:46:37,980
Washington with former director of the

836
00:46:44,029 --> 00:46:40,230
Institute of theoretical problems from

837
00:46:46,250 --> 00:46:44,039
Moscow who had been running many of

838
00:46:48,319 --> 00:46:46,260
those studies and the interesting part

839
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:48,329
is we traded information there than a

840
00:46:55,099 --> 00:46:50,010
decade before we probably would

841
00:46:59,120 --> 00:46:55,109
literally have killed for that approach

842
00:47:04,730 --> 00:46:59,130
was a little different than ours in that

843
00:47:08,029 --> 00:47:04,740
most of the people ya know you don't

844
00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:08,039
know about the Ingo Swann and or farmers

845
00:47:15,620 --> 00:47:12,720
and all those yeah there were a few

846
00:47:16,089 --> 00:47:15,630
external people involved they were more

847
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:16,099
and

848
00:47:20,439 --> 00:47:18,529
the research angle of course gets credit

849
00:47:25,180 --> 00:47:20,449
for the development of the matrix and

850
00:47:27,039 --> 00:47:25,190
became great in the training skills that

851
00:47:30,009 --> 00:47:27,049
the question was you know can we teach

852
00:47:34,089 --> 00:47:30,019
other people to do this the question

853
00:47:37,029 --> 00:47:34,099
then becomes do you find people with

854
00:47:40,509 --> 00:47:37,039
natural skills and bring them in or do

855
00:47:42,359 --> 00:47:40,519
you take intelligence people and train

856
00:47:48,459 --> 00:47:42,369
them accordingly

857
00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:48,469
Soviet approach was to you know and the

858
00:47:56,170 --> 00:47:53,140
civilian sector and bring people in we

859
00:47:59,559 --> 00:47:56,180
found people with you know kind of

860
00:48:03,249 --> 00:47:59,569
natural abilities but inside the system

861
00:48:05,739 --> 00:48:03,259
remember Joe McMullen going was a

862
00:48:09,670 --> 00:48:05,749
walk-in now he had had some near-death

863
00:48:13,509 --> 00:48:09,680
experiences before and here's what we

864
00:48:18,249 --> 00:48:13,519
call the natural psychic and certainly

865
00:48:20,229 --> 00:48:18,259
one of the absolute best and then there

866
00:48:23,319 --> 00:48:20,239
were others that came in that seemed to

867
00:48:27,749 --> 00:48:23,329
have some ability it helps to be able to

868
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:27,759
draw have artistic characteristic um

869
00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:31,130
which eliminates me I have trouble with

870
00:48:42,189 --> 00:48:38,049
sick people but you know several of them

871
00:48:45,519 --> 00:48:42,199
are you know quite proficient artists

872
00:48:47,769 --> 00:48:45,529
and so they were able to one thing able

873
00:48:51,130 --> 00:48:47,779
to access the information but then how

874
00:48:55,569 --> 00:48:51,140
do you come back and recorded in a way

875
00:48:58,689 --> 00:48:55,579
that is useful Paul Smith is one of

876
00:49:01,839 --> 00:48:58,699
those I might add he was also the unit

877
00:49:05,109 --> 00:49:01,849
historian but you go to his home and

878
00:49:09,370 --> 00:49:05,119
find the artwork that that he did and of

879
00:49:12,189 --> 00:49:09,380
course angles was just legendary did you

880
00:49:15,489 --> 00:49:12,199
read INGOs book I believe it second all

881
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:15,499
penetration have you read them yeah oh

882
00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:17,930
yeah wait what do you think he makes him

883
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:20,630
like some pretty extraordinary claims in

884
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:22,170
there what do you think about it

885
00:49:25,819 --> 00:49:24,450
I think you made some pretty

886
00:49:36,799 --> 00:49:25,829
extraordinary coins

887
00:49:39,890 --> 00:49:36,809
okay good friend of ours let me ask you

888
00:49:41,690 --> 00:49:39,900
one other thing about remote viewing do

889
00:49:43,579 --> 00:49:41,700
you think it's just basically a sense

890
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:43,589
that most people have like there are

891
00:49:48,410 --> 00:49:46,410
seeing our hearing or ability to speak

892
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:48,420
and feel do you think that's what it is

893
00:49:51,769 --> 00:49:50,250
and then some people just have better

894
00:49:54,289 --> 00:49:51,779
vision that some people are better

895
00:49:55,220 --> 00:49:54,299
remote viewers or better psychics what

896
00:50:00,410 --> 00:49:55,230
do you what do you think's at the root

897
00:50:03,319 --> 00:50:00,420
of it short answer is yes I think that

898
00:50:05,809 --> 00:50:03,329
you know my take is everybody has these

899
00:50:08,509 --> 00:50:05,819
capabilities and exactly like you

900
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:08,519
described whatever its integral

901
00:50:16,130 --> 00:50:12,690
characteristics are those of us who are

902
00:50:18,740 --> 00:50:16,140
ambulatory we can walk we can run but

903
00:50:23,059 --> 00:50:18,750
you're probably not going to be Olympic

904
00:50:26,089 --> 00:50:23,069
athletes at it so that was one of the

905
00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:26,099
things that was done in our system a

906
00:50:33,549 --> 00:50:29,940
number of the people who came in to that

907
00:50:38,089 --> 00:50:33,559
Jay had you know kind of remarkable

908
00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:38,099
experiences that had occurred and then

909
00:50:44,450 --> 00:50:41,730
were trained so I think it my personal

910
00:50:48,769 --> 00:50:44,460
belief is that we all have some level

911
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:48,779
and with practice you can get better now

912
00:50:53,839 --> 00:50:50,730
that doesn't mean that you're

913
00:50:55,999 --> 00:50:53,849
necessarily going to climb Everest but

914
00:50:59,660 --> 00:50:56,009
you may get up some freeze pretty good

915
00:51:01,339 --> 00:50:59,670
hills I wanted to mention John how my

916
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:01,349
understanding is you do not like the

917
00:51:05,509 --> 00:51:03,210
word paranormal you think these

918
00:51:06,859 --> 00:51:05,519
paranormal things are normal you do

919
00:51:09,620 --> 00:51:06,869
think what is going on is extremely

920
00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:09,630
complex and you have dealt with a wide

921
00:51:14,539 --> 00:51:11,910
range of phenomena and you believe it is

922
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:14,549
as complex as cancer and AIDS is that

923
00:51:23,210 --> 00:51:20,640
correct just mostly correct I missed a

924
00:51:25,490 --> 00:51:23,220
piece of it oh that you have dealt with

925
00:51:28,009 --> 00:51:25,500
a wide range of phenomena and you

926
00:51:31,490 --> 00:51:28,019
believe it is as complex as cancer and

927
00:51:33,410 --> 00:51:31,500
AIDS oh absolutely you know this is one

928
00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:33,420
of the things I had been address

929
00:51:41,990 --> 00:51:37,710
and breeding for that's exactly why I

930
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:42,000
said it is whatever it is and terribly

931
00:51:48,079 --> 00:51:43,710
complex there's not going to be any one

932
00:51:51,559 --> 00:51:48,089
simple answer that drives and anything

933
00:51:54,289 --> 00:51:51,569
so the the cancer and AIDS aspect it

934
00:51:59,150 --> 00:51:54,299
cuts to when I discuss funding issues

935
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,160
because funding is miniscule I use the

936
00:52:05,569 --> 00:52:02,240
Large Hadron Collider as an example I

937
00:52:09,140 --> 00:52:05,579
think we put 17 billion into that now

938
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:09,150
the basic belief system is mechanistic

939
00:52:14,809 --> 00:52:12,720
that you know things get cut into

940
00:52:17,809 --> 00:52:14,819
smaller smaller pieces will plug into

941
00:52:19,700 --> 00:52:17,819
god particle like the Higgs boson when

942
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:19,710
we found that and then they five ups we

943
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:23,490
got pentaquarks beyond that arm in my

944
00:52:30,650 --> 00:52:26,450
view the fundamental issue really is

945
00:52:34,339 --> 00:52:30,660
consciousness that's not totally new but

946
00:52:37,690 --> 00:52:34,349
my point is that we spend you know huge

947
00:52:42,349 --> 00:52:37,700
amounts of money to validate the

948
00:52:46,250 --> 00:52:42,359
materialistic beliefs and yet when it

949
00:52:48,380 --> 00:52:46,260
comes to these phenomena I've checked

950
00:52:51,890 --> 00:52:48,390
with a lot of people well my guess is

951
00:52:54,859 --> 00:52:51,900
all over the world and if you

952
00:52:56,900 --> 00:52:54,869
incorporate all of these phenomena maybe

953
00:53:01,940 --> 00:52:56,910
you'll find ten million dollars a year

954
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:01,950
and my other point is there you know if

955
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:04,770
we found the god particle if you will

956
00:53:10,819 --> 00:53:07,530
that would be intensely interesting to a

957
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:10,829
small group of theoretical physics

958
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:14,130
physicists the point is that we're going

959
00:53:19,849 --> 00:53:16,619
to talk about communicant in uation of

960
00:53:23,299 --> 00:53:19,859
consciousness I mean beyond bodily death

961
00:53:24,799 --> 00:53:23,309
that ought to be of interest 100 percent

962
00:53:27,289 --> 00:53:24,809
of the population because we're all

963
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:27,299
going to get a chance to experience it

964
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:33,450
at least once I'm John just to get more

965
00:53:42,380 --> 00:53:41,930
when you're saying alright I chair day

966
00:53:44,390 --> 00:53:42,390
if I could

967
00:53:45,830 --> 00:53:44,400
what we're saying is that basically your

968
00:53:47,930 --> 00:53:45,840
your

969
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:47,940
interested in reincarnation as well

970
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:53,610
basically yeah well remember my when I

971
00:53:58,870 --> 00:53:56,130
finished my doctorate the head of my

972
00:54:02,440 --> 00:53:58,880
committee was Elizabeth kubler-ross

973
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:02,450
she's the one who brought hospice to

974
00:54:09,860 --> 00:54:07,290
America and she was along with Raymond

975
00:54:12,940 --> 00:54:09,870
Moody when we were first talking about

976
00:54:17,150 --> 00:54:12,950
and publicly about near-death

977
00:54:21,460 --> 00:54:17,160
experiences shortly after I had finished

978
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:21,470
my dissertation slam the Pentagon but I

979
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:25,170
joined the AIIMS International

980
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:27,330
Association for near-death studies and

981
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:30,450
then was on the board and spent of time

982
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:35,130
as the president so got to hear a lot of

983
00:54:42,770 --> 00:54:39,450
very phenomenal stories and I think when

984
00:54:45,070 --> 00:54:42,780
you look at some of the key ones it's

985
00:54:48,650 --> 00:54:45,080
just again defies all rational

986
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:48,660
explanation and again personal view

987
00:54:55,550 --> 00:54:51,930
don't want to upset people belief system

988
00:54:58,060 --> 00:54:55,560
but that I think it's almost assurity

989
00:55:02,030 --> 00:54:58,070
the consciousness continues beyond

990
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:02,040
physical mortality I wanted to mention a

991
00:55:08,060 --> 00:55:04,170
little bit about Elizabeth kubler-ross I

992
00:55:10,490 --> 00:55:08,070
had to study her in school and I think

993
00:55:13,010 --> 00:55:10,500
it was middle school and she was a Swiss

994
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:13,020
American psychiatrist who died in 2004

995
00:55:17,660 --> 00:55:15,450
and also just reading a little bit of

996
00:55:20,330 --> 00:55:17,670
her biography she was a pioneer in

997
00:55:22,370 --> 00:55:20,340
near-death studies and the author of a

998
00:55:25,220 --> 00:55:22,380
groundbreaking book on death and dying

999
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:25,230
and where she discusses her iconic

1000
00:55:30,140 --> 00:55:28,050
theory of the five stages of grief also

1001
00:55:32,330 --> 00:55:30,150
known as the kubler-ross model when I

1002
00:55:34,370 --> 00:55:32,340
studied that model in school it was

1003
00:55:36,350 --> 00:55:34,380
really an astounding model she's so

1004
00:55:39,590 --> 00:55:36,360
accurate in my perspective regarding it

1005
00:55:42,020 --> 00:55:39,600
and also she was talking about death and

1006
00:55:48,370 --> 00:55:42,030
the celebration of it actually rather

1007
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:48,380
than a negative aspect of it I was

1008
00:55:55,220 --> 00:55:52,050
definitely a pioneer I might say one of

1009
00:55:58,210 --> 00:55:55,230
the things I missed it was my anthem is

1010
00:56:00,670 --> 00:55:58,220
that she promised me that after

1011
00:56:06,970 --> 00:56:00,680
transitions you would quote pinch me on

1012
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:06,980
the tush the real question is did that

1013
00:56:18,099 --> 00:56:12,890
happen well nothing I'm actually aware

1014
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:18,109
of one of the stories that I do recall

1015
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:21,770
in the book of what would happen see one

1016
00:56:26,109 --> 00:56:23,119
of the things you did this was a

1017
00:56:28,570 --> 00:56:26,119
near-death stuff but she again she was

1018
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:28,580
teaching in University of Chicago

1019
00:56:34,660 --> 00:56:31,250
Medical School and she started with

1020
00:56:37,030 --> 00:56:34,670
something really innovative for doctors

1021
00:56:40,839 --> 00:56:37,040
like why don't you talk to dying

1022
00:56:43,270 --> 00:56:40,849
patients so they would have seminars and

1023
00:56:46,570 --> 00:56:43,280
they would bring people in for the

1024
00:56:48,070 --> 00:56:46,580
doctors and have them discuss what was

1025
00:56:50,170 --> 00:56:48,080
going on for them because one of the

1026
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:50,180
problems and the medical community death

1027
00:56:58,420 --> 00:56:55,490
is viewed you know as the enemy and you

1028
00:57:00,849 --> 00:56:58,430
also find that this case is getting more

1029
00:57:02,770 --> 00:57:00,859
and more difficult you see people know

1030
00:57:04,900 --> 00:57:02,780
the patient's getting moved farther and

1031
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:04,910
farther away less contact with doctors

1032
00:57:10,300 --> 00:57:06,730
nurses are a different story

1033
00:57:13,650 --> 00:57:10,310
nurses then they have much more you know

1034
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:13,660
face to face experience and acknowledge

1035
00:57:17,650 --> 00:57:16,250
many of the phenomenons that they have

1036
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:17,660
seen the clear one of the things being

1037
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:20,510
studied right now or what they called

1038
00:57:25,859 --> 00:57:23,930
shared that near-death experiences where

1039
00:57:29,620 --> 00:57:25,869
you have more than one person other

1040
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:29,630
experiences very various aspects of

1041
00:57:34,930 --> 00:57:33,290
what's going on but very physical but

1042
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:34,940
one of the things that happen is she'd

1043
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:37,280
been doing this for a while she figured

1044
00:57:42,130 --> 00:57:39,770
that hey you know this is getting old

1045
00:57:43,870 --> 00:57:42,140
somebody else will certainly pick it up

1046
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:43,880
because it's quite it was very

1047
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:46,640
innovative at the time and she's been

1048
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:52,130
working with a chaplain and so she's

1049
00:57:58,560 --> 00:57:54,710
given her what she thinks is the last

1050
00:58:01,000 --> 00:57:58,570
presentation and her walking back and

1051
00:58:02,980 --> 00:58:01,010
she's trying to get the chaplains

1052
00:58:04,510 --> 00:58:02,990
attention and he's rather on about

1053
00:58:05,509 --> 00:58:04,520
something else that she wanted to reach

1054
00:58:08,149 --> 00:58:05,519
him um

1055
00:58:10,339 --> 00:58:08,159
with a little tiny thing okay really

1056
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:10,349
very explosive with the triplet and the

1057
00:58:16,399 --> 00:58:14,130
smallest of the triplet and he's going

1058
00:58:19,209 --> 00:58:16,409
to reach up and just shake the sky and

1059
00:58:23,109 --> 00:58:19,219
all of a sudden here's this woman

1060
00:58:26,630 --> 00:58:23,119
standing over the beckoning to her until

1061
00:58:29,689 --> 00:58:26,640
walking down the hall going like you

1062
00:58:33,169 --> 00:58:29,699
know Tia I think I know this person but

1063
00:58:36,709 --> 00:58:33,179
I just can't place her you know so they

1064
00:58:41,269 --> 00:58:36,719
go and the woman opens the door to a

1065
00:58:45,019 --> 00:58:41,279
live audience and they go in and so she

1066
00:58:47,749 --> 00:58:45,029
says look I'm here to tell you that

1067
00:58:50,439 --> 00:58:47,759
you're supposed to continue the work

1068
00:58:53,599 --> 00:58:50,449
just don't stop doing this right now

1069
00:58:58,389 --> 00:58:53,609
about that time she says I know who this

1070
00:59:02,870 --> 00:58:58,399
is mrs. Marie Schwartz who is a this

1071
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:02,880
patient of hers and so she goes on you

1072
00:59:10,209 --> 00:59:07,890
know remake the chaplain he would like

1073
00:59:14,629 --> 00:59:10,219
to hear from you would you be willing to

1074
00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:14,639
write and sign this note to him you know

1075
00:59:20,809 --> 00:59:16,529
looking you know she's doing reality

1076
00:59:24,949 --> 00:59:20,819
check remember he's a psychiatrist right

1077
00:59:30,439 --> 00:59:24,959
um and so the woman does write her name

1078
00:59:32,899 --> 00:59:30,449
and then a little dose is waiting just a

1079
00:59:37,459 --> 00:59:32,909
minute just women so she runs out and

1080
00:59:39,919 --> 00:59:37,469
here's a long hallway totally empty and

1081
00:59:43,429 --> 00:59:39,929
of course they had the you know

1082
00:59:47,479 --> 00:59:43,439
handwriting analyzed and it was Marie

1083
00:59:50,179 --> 00:59:47,489
Schwartz I wanted to mention a quote

1084
00:59:52,879 --> 00:59:50,189
that dr. Elisabeth kubler-ross said and

1085
00:59:55,370 --> 00:59:52,889
that is this consciously or not we're

1086
00:59:57,529 --> 00:59:55,380
all in a quest for answers trying to

1087
00:59:59,599 --> 00:59:57,539
learn the lessons of life we grapple

1088
01:00:01,639 --> 00:59:59,609
with fear and guilt we search for

1089
01:00:04,519 --> 01:00:01,649
meaning love and power we try to

1090
01:00:07,009 --> 01:00:04,529
understand fear lost in time we seek to

1091
01:00:11,089 --> 01:00:07,019
discover who we are and how we become

1092
01:00:13,759 --> 01:00:11,099
can become truly happy John I wanted to

1093
01:00:16,089 --> 01:00:13,769
mention something that you said and that

1094
01:00:23,109 --> 01:00:21,039
you do not disregard things because you

1095
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:23,119
you're basically saying people should

1096
01:00:29,559 --> 01:00:24,890
not disregard things because they do not

1097
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:29,569
understand it and use other words let's

1098
01:00:41,339 --> 01:00:38,079
unfortunately we live in the post truth

1099
01:00:44,859 --> 01:00:41,349
world so there are things that you know

1100
01:00:47,380 --> 01:00:44,869
do need to be verified but the point and

1101
01:00:50,319 --> 01:00:47,390
this is the whole subtitle of the book

1102
01:00:57,089 --> 01:00:50,329
the things that can't happen but dead

1103
01:01:02,349 --> 01:01:00,009
that's a very good point moving on to

1104
01:01:04,390 --> 01:01:02,359
another topic I wanted to ask you a

1105
01:01:06,759 --> 01:01:04,400
little bit about a few things in that

1106
01:01:07,299 --> 01:01:06,769
case I'll just go ahead and name them

1107
01:01:09,569 --> 01:01:07,309
off

1108
01:01:12,370 --> 01:01:09,579
there's Voodoo West Africa ayahuasca

1109
01:01:14,140 --> 01:01:12,380
shaman's dowsing and crystal skulls are

1110
01:01:20,799 --> 01:01:14,150
you able to talk about any of those

1111
01:01:22,359 --> 01:01:20,809
topics did you want to go ahead and talk

1112
01:01:29,279 --> 01:01:22,369
a little bit about the crystal skull I

1113
01:01:33,099 --> 01:01:29,289
know folks agree fascinated well okay I

1114
01:01:35,859 --> 01:01:33,109
don't mind read it it was the point is

1115
01:01:41,529 --> 01:01:35,869
really weird stuff did happen around

1116
01:01:48,180 --> 01:01:41,539
that we have visited shamans around the

1117
01:01:50,589 --> 01:01:48,190
world and sometimes has incurred

1118
01:01:54,219 --> 01:01:50,599
homelessness Jim definitely used I lost

1119
01:01:59,349 --> 01:01:54,229
it twice I do not care for it I will

1120
01:02:01,599 --> 01:01:59,359
warn anybody who wants to be involved in

1121
01:02:03,719 --> 01:02:01,609
fact we can put them in contact though I

1122
01:02:05,709 --> 01:02:03,729
think of the right people it is being

1123
01:02:09,660 --> 01:02:05,719
very very careful

1124
01:02:13,599 --> 01:02:09,670
this stuff is extraordinarily powerful

1125
01:02:18,329 --> 01:02:13,609
and who said I've been in the Lezama

1126
01:02:22,029 --> 01:02:18,339
that spoken at the International

1127
01:02:26,289 --> 01:02:22,039
International Amazonian shamans

1128
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:26,299
conferences for time my wife sort of the

1129
01:02:31,620 --> 01:02:27,970
devil take

1130
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:31,630
ayahuasca it will never be a

1131
01:02:40,290 --> 01:02:35,170
recreational drug because the side

1132
01:02:43,530 --> 01:02:40,300
effects are exciting likely to run at

1133
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:43,540
one end and sometimes to simultaneously

1134
01:02:48,780 --> 01:02:46,210
go to a purging process which is the

1135
01:02:51,710 --> 01:02:48,790
preparation to deal with you know

1136
01:02:56,610 --> 01:02:51,720
whatever happens initially it can be

1137
01:02:59,400 --> 01:02:56,620
very very frightening usually the people

1138
01:03:02,490 --> 01:02:59,410
walk away and say whatever happened that

1139
01:03:06,620 --> 01:03:02,500
was exactly you know what I needed at

1140
01:03:15,090 --> 01:03:06,630
that time we do think it is offers a

1141
01:03:17,130 --> 01:03:15,100
excellent treatment modality in PTSD but

1142
01:03:18,930 --> 01:03:17,140
again with cautionary tale not for

1143
01:03:27,150 --> 01:03:18,940
everybody by any stretch of the

1144
01:03:32,090 --> 01:03:27,160
imagination but you know that dealt with

1145
01:03:36,530 --> 01:03:32,100
I am shamans just all over the world

1146
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:36,540
with ayahuasca you know you'll find

1147
01:03:42,180 --> 01:03:39,130
lectures on it because I did ask the

1148
01:03:44,550 --> 01:03:42,190
shaman thing what you do is you take a

1149
01:03:47,390 --> 01:03:44,560
couple of disparate plants and you bring

1150
01:03:51,890 --> 01:03:47,400
them together we knew do know that the

1151
01:03:56,010 --> 01:03:51,900
psychoactive substance is DMT

1152
01:03:59,640 --> 01:03:56,020
dimethyltryptamine but I am totally

1153
01:04:02,640 --> 01:03:59,650
convinced that psychopharmacology does

1154
01:04:11,660 --> 01:04:02,650
not explain the kinds of events that

1155
01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:14,070
okay yeah you had mentioned that there

1156
01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:17,530
you did visited and dealt with shamans

1157
01:04:22,170 --> 01:04:20,170
all over the world do they all use it

1158
01:04:24,330 --> 01:04:22,180
and one day whatever happened might be

1159
01:04:26,820 --> 01:04:24,340
available locally has some form of

1160
01:04:28,620 --> 01:04:26,830
psychedelic or is that just know a few

1161
01:04:33,270 --> 01:04:28,630
here and there not at all

1162
01:04:37,260 --> 01:04:33,280
and in fact there's a chapter in the

1163
01:04:38,589 --> 01:04:37,270
book on Brazil we've also dealt with on

1164
01:04:42,519 --> 01:04:38,599
Banda

1165
01:04:44,559 --> 01:04:42,529
combin bleh one of the most amazing

1166
01:04:47,579 --> 01:04:44,569
experiences that happen we're in

1167
01:04:51,039 --> 01:04:47,589
Curitiba in Buda I've been in Brazil

1168
01:04:55,420 --> 01:04:51,049
several times and get in a non-lethal

1169
01:04:57,249 --> 01:04:55,430
stock a lot of it has to do great

1170
01:04:59,170 --> 01:04:57,259
company down there that deals with

1171
01:05:02,079 --> 01:04:59,180
non-lethal weapons have been going down

1172
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:02,089
for the government and talking in that

1173
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:07,130
but had the experience to you know work

1174
01:05:14,890 --> 01:05:10,970
with others as well but what happened in

1175
01:05:18,190 --> 01:05:14,900
we were had on bundle ceremony in said

1176
01:05:20,430 --> 01:05:18,200
in Curitiba town of about three million

1177
01:05:25,210 --> 01:05:20,440
people and you probably haven't heard of

1178
01:05:30,249 --> 01:05:25,220
the point was that Victoria got

1179
01:05:32,109 --> 01:05:30,259
possessed kind of a long involved sorts

1180
01:05:36,180 --> 01:05:32,119
of thing now this is a word it was

1181
01:05:40,239 --> 01:05:36,190
actually no drugs involved whatsoever

1182
01:05:43,359 --> 01:05:40,249
the she said they had asked if anybody

1183
01:05:45,729 --> 01:05:43,369
wants to be healing the setting and the

1184
01:05:48,249 --> 01:05:45,739
Bri big center and about three hundred

1185
01:05:51,670 --> 01:05:48,259
folks there I guess and maybe ten

1186
01:05:57,309 --> 01:05:51,680
gringos so most of them are locals who

1187
01:06:01,329 --> 01:05:57,319
have seen these ceremonies up close many

1188
01:06:05,410 --> 01:06:01,339
times but so she's standing there and

1189
01:06:07,569 --> 01:06:05,420
has this young priestess comes down the

1190
01:06:12,099 --> 01:06:07,579
line she says you just felt something go

1191
01:06:15,609 --> 01:06:12,109
one and jump into her and the next thing

1192
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:15,619
you know you know she's out whirling on

1193
01:06:20,499 --> 01:06:18,170
the floor and said they're used to it

1194
01:06:24,039 --> 01:06:20,509
they're not used to the same green I

1195
01:06:27,370 --> 01:06:24,049
mean literally stop the show that she's

1196
01:06:29,259 --> 01:06:27,380
spinning out there and they came over to

1197
01:06:30,999 --> 01:06:29,269
me and because I was taking pictures and

1198
01:06:34,089 --> 01:06:31,009
they go you know I you're a reporter I

1199
01:06:38,170 --> 01:06:34,099
said no that's my wife and they go this

1200
01:06:40,959 --> 01:06:38,180
should be okay you know and you know she

1201
01:06:44,319 --> 01:06:40,969
will describe it as having allowed a

1202
01:06:47,499 --> 01:06:44,329
discordant entity to have a human

1203
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:47,509
experience for you know on some period

1204
01:06:54,030 --> 01:06:48,970
of time

1205
01:06:55,950 --> 01:06:54,040
and an interesting question by the way

1206
01:06:59,130 --> 01:06:55,960
all of these things you ventually kind

1207
01:07:02,670 --> 01:06:59,140
of get tied back together one of the

1208
01:07:05,569 --> 01:07:02,680
problems at the ranch is that people

1209
01:07:09,900 --> 01:07:05,579
were having negative experiences and

1210
01:07:12,510 --> 01:07:09,910
taking them home with them and when we

1211
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:12,520
come back we're talking to column and he

1212
01:07:17,579 --> 01:07:14,050
asked us a will did you bring anything

1213
01:07:20,069 --> 01:07:17,589
back because you know during this period

1214
01:07:24,450 --> 01:07:20,079
was he's allowing a discounted energy

1215
01:07:28,470 --> 01:07:24,460
Chandra her and have that experience the

1216
01:07:30,829 --> 01:07:28,480
question is did it all leave and as far

1217
01:07:32,790 --> 01:07:30,839
as we know the answer to that was yes

1218
01:07:36,170 --> 01:07:32,800
that's pretty spectacular

1219
01:07:45,349 --> 01:07:36,180
Ernie jumped to Africa because we were

1220
01:07:49,950 --> 01:07:45,359
in trouble and the name and attending a

1221
01:07:53,609 --> 01:07:49,960
hot-glue ceremonies and the things we

1222
01:07:57,240 --> 01:07:53,619
saw there again absolutely no drugs

1223
01:07:59,130 --> 01:07:57,250
involved whatsoever watching people

1224
01:08:02,130 --> 01:07:59,140
particularly with fire just the fiber

1225
01:08:04,079 --> 01:08:02,140
laws of thermodynamics where they would

1226
01:08:08,490 --> 01:08:04,089
stand on the fire signify or eat the

1227
01:08:12,930 --> 01:08:08,500
fire um just I mean I was taking photos

1228
01:08:15,690 --> 01:08:12,940
that hmm maybe six eight feet away from

1229
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:15,700
them so it is really hot and no they

1230
01:08:21,420 --> 01:08:19,330
don't have any magic substances these

1231
01:08:26,209 --> 01:08:21,430
are people of the poverty level look up

1232
01:08:31,829 --> 01:08:26,219
to dirt and certainly not gonna have

1233
01:08:34,260 --> 01:08:31,839
esoteric sorts of substances that you

1234
01:08:36,809 --> 01:08:34,270
know some magic thing that we would love

1235
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:36,819
to have for firefighters

1236
01:08:43,950 --> 01:08:40,930
similarly we were in Mongolia with

1237
01:08:47,820 --> 01:08:43,960
reindeer shamans we'll be out in the

1238
01:08:50,309 --> 01:08:47,830
boonies and had a number of

1239
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:50,319
remarkable experiences happen and

1240
01:08:58,150 --> 01:08:54,410
totally without drugs so sometimes it

1241
01:09:03,000 --> 01:08:58,160
does enhance and contribute some pretty

1242
01:09:05,770 --> 01:09:03,010
impressive things caution definitely buy

1243
01:09:08,829 --> 01:09:05,780
if you want to do ayahuasca let me tell

1244
01:09:11,079 --> 01:09:08,839
you how to do that and with whom we we

1245
01:09:15,790 --> 01:09:11,089
trust but you really want to know your

1246
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:15,800
shaman I agree yeah that's a really

1247
01:09:20,440 --> 01:09:17,690
important that we let everybody know

1248
01:09:22,300 --> 01:09:20,450
that some folks who have used ayahuasca

1249
01:09:26,230 --> 01:09:22,310
which is actually the combination of two

1250
01:09:28,780 --> 01:09:26,240
different plants for spiritual reasons

1251
01:09:30,579 --> 01:09:28,790
or other reasons need to be forewarned

1252
01:09:33,130 --> 01:09:30,589
that there could be severe side effects

1253
01:09:34,990 --> 01:09:33,140
you can also have seizures and there's

1254
01:09:41,020 --> 01:09:35,000
many other possibilities regarding that

1255
01:09:46,450 --> 01:09:41,030
I wanted to move back on that we have

1256
01:09:51,070 --> 01:09:46,460
never seen the negative experiences more

1257
01:09:54,250 --> 01:09:51,080
on the human side particularly with

1258
01:09:58,270 --> 01:09:54,260
females that have gone down they've been

1259
01:10:01,330 --> 01:09:58,280
sometimes sexually violated one of the

1260
01:10:02,980 --> 01:10:01,340
problems with ayahuasca itself there are

1261
01:10:06,700 --> 01:10:02,990
certain things that are put in but each

1262
01:10:11,350 --> 01:10:06,710
shaman you know kind of has his own or

1263
01:10:14,170 --> 01:10:11,360
her own recipe and there's also a number

1264
01:10:16,180 --> 01:10:14,180
of different types of ayahuasca and use

1265
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:16,190
for a different thing some do it for

1266
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:20,690
vision some for healing some different

1267
01:10:30,490 --> 01:10:26,690
spiritual transformation so you don't

1268
01:10:31,630 --> 01:10:30,500
want to go into yeah my understanding is

1269
01:10:33,970 --> 01:10:31,640
you really want to do your homework

1270
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:33,980
because it's gotten so popular now and

1271
01:10:38,050 --> 01:10:35,690
so many people are going down there

1272
01:10:39,610 --> 01:10:38,060
obviously yeah there's a lot of folks

1273
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:39,620
looking to make a quick buck down there

1274
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:41,810
who are just kind of jumping in they

1275
01:10:44,140 --> 01:10:43,130
really don't know what they're doing so

1276
01:10:47,530 --> 01:10:44,150
you really do have to do your homework

1277
01:10:49,450 --> 01:10:47,540
yeah and also if you feel like you can

1278
01:10:53,260 --> 01:10:49,460
contact somebody who's done this before

1279
01:10:56,770 --> 01:10:53,270
that might be helpful I wanted to bring

1280
01:10:59,230 --> 01:10:56,780
on the topic of Cleve Backster the

1281
01:11:00,790 --> 01:10:59,240
secret life of plants author which

1282
01:11:03,129 --> 01:11:00,800
started off as a field expert

1283
01:11:05,049 --> 01:11:03,139
is my understanding and he's the one who

1284
01:11:08,260 --> 01:11:05,059
also started the polygraph system as we

1285
01:11:11,530 --> 01:11:08,270
know it today he is was an interrogation

1286
01:11:13,330 --> 01:11:11,540
specialist for the CIA best known for

1287
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:13,340
his experiments with plants using a

1288
01:11:18,100 --> 01:11:16,130
polygraph instrument in the 1960s which

1289
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:18,110
led to a theory of primary perception

1290
01:11:24,939 --> 01:11:20,690
where he claimed that plants feel pain

1291
01:11:27,549 --> 01:11:24,949
and have extrasensory perception well

1292
01:11:29,950 --> 01:11:27,559
it's far far more complex than that and

1293
01:11:32,290 --> 01:11:29,960
by the way Cleveland who developed a

1294
01:11:34,330 --> 01:11:32,300
system that is still in use today in

1295
01:11:36,250 --> 01:11:34,340
zone comparison

1296
01:11:38,919 --> 01:11:36,260
he'd been above the counter intelligence

1297
01:11:41,979 --> 01:11:38,929
core before and then with the CIA when

1298
01:11:48,250 --> 01:11:41,989
they were first formed and created his

1299
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:48,260
own following that's cool yeah we had

1300
01:11:55,979 --> 01:11:53,690
heard about that and we would claves and

1301
01:12:02,109 --> 01:11:55,989
I'm actually hitting on the contract

1302
01:12:03,609 --> 01:12:02,119
became a good friend instead of plants

1303
01:12:07,629 --> 01:12:03,619
where everything is are farther and that

1304
01:12:10,180 --> 01:12:07,639
is using all the leukocytes ie the white

1305
01:12:12,370 --> 01:12:10,190
cells from the mouth and we found that

1306
01:12:16,180 --> 01:12:12,380
you could monitor the emotional state of

1307
01:12:18,430 --> 01:12:16,190
an individual at considerable distances

1308
01:12:21,700 --> 01:12:18,440
don't know how far because you never

1309
01:12:27,549 --> 01:12:21,710
could figure that out and would almost

1310
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:27,559
take the deep space X exploration to do

1311
01:12:32,859 --> 01:12:29,210
that because the speed at which the

1312
01:12:35,830 --> 01:12:32,869
informations being transferred but a

1313
01:12:38,890 --> 01:12:35,840
kind of an interesting one I had was a

1314
01:12:42,669 --> 01:12:38,900
guinea pig and for a number of these

1315
01:12:46,419 --> 01:12:42,679
tests we had one I let him screw around

1316
01:12:50,290 --> 01:12:46,429
we had a system whereby the white cells

1317
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:50,300
are being monitored on a camera it's

1318
01:12:55,629 --> 01:12:52,610
showing up on a graph and then you would

1319
01:12:57,700 --> 01:12:55,639
use a split screen and you'd be able to

1320
01:12:59,439 --> 01:12:57,710
see what's going on and they meet it

1321
01:13:01,569 --> 01:12:59,449
environments they've got the picture and

1322
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:01,579
the screen to go and then we actually

1323
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:04,130
did it was split up three ways where I

1324
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:06,489
was hooked up to a polygraph

1325
01:13:14,650 --> 01:13:10,250
screen that's going on and the graph

1326
01:13:17,530 --> 01:13:14,660
itself and what I found

1327
01:13:20,370 --> 01:13:17,540
I could beat the political fur but I

1328
01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:20,380
couldn't beat them the white selves

1329
01:13:27,220 --> 01:13:24,730
which was kind of an interesting trait

1330
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:27,230
we did we had done quite a bit of work

1331
01:13:35,860 --> 01:13:29,930
of course encounter polygraph sorts more

1332
01:13:38,110 --> 01:13:35,870
technique but it was one of the original

1333
01:13:41,070 --> 01:13:38,120
pioneers in many of these areas and does

1334
01:13:44,440 --> 01:13:41,080
not get the credit then I think he

1335
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:44,450
really deserves what was informational

1336
01:13:49,570 --> 01:13:46,610
to a mine including health club often

1337
01:13:52,030 --> 01:13:49,580
some of us folks people just don't know

1338
01:13:52,780 --> 01:13:52,040
that much about him become pretty

1339
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:52,790
amazing

1340
01:13:58,420 --> 01:13:55,850
yes he was I wanted to move along to

1341
01:14:00,490 --> 01:13:58,430
your military experiences and

1342
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:00,500
specifically wanted to talk to you about

1343
01:14:05,380 --> 01:14:03,290
one about a Vietcong minefield that had

1344
01:14:07,930 --> 01:14:05,390
an experience regarding a trip wire and

1345
01:14:12,250 --> 01:14:07,940
a landmine you mind sharing a little bit

1346
01:14:17,980 --> 01:14:12,260
more about that experience you had one

1347
01:14:19,810 --> 01:14:17,990
of these personal ones we know that we

1348
01:14:22,090 --> 01:14:19,820
we the military people in the military

1349
01:14:25,180 --> 01:14:22,100
know if you're in combat that there are

1350
01:14:27,580 --> 01:14:25,190
people who are more sensitive to the

1351
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:27,590
surroundings and others called the point

1352
01:14:33,180 --> 01:14:30,530
man syndrome if you will with certain

1353
01:14:35,830 --> 01:14:33,190
guys are on point ie the guy going first

1354
01:14:39,340 --> 01:14:35,840
we tended to be safe because they would

1355
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:39,350
be alert to danger and other people will

1356
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:43,250
just kind of bump along you know trigger

1357
01:14:50,970 --> 01:14:45,050
those ambushes and whatnot this

1358
01:14:59,530 --> 01:14:55,270
patrol and got into the area that turned

1359
01:15:01,750 --> 01:14:59,540
out to be mined and so they spun that so

1360
01:15:06,430 --> 01:15:01,760
on anyway the point was that I was

1361
01:15:09,310 --> 01:15:06,440
backing up and so I'm not watching where

1362
01:15:12,550 --> 01:15:09,320
I'm going obviously and all of a sudden

1363
01:15:16,690 --> 01:15:12,560
just stopped and sure enough across the

1364
01:15:21,010 --> 01:15:16,700
back of my heel was a tripwire that have

1365
01:15:22,660 --> 01:15:21,020
already started to pull and fortunately

1366
01:15:25,089 --> 01:15:22,670
didn't go offer we probably wouldn't

1367
01:15:29,020 --> 01:15:25,099
have this conversation

1368
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:29,030
I wanted to also ask you about a certain

1369
01:15:33,850 --> 01:15:31,250
topic that Frank and I have studied I'm

1370
01:15:37,290 --> 01:15:33,860
sorry covered extensively on our show

1371
01:15:41,859 --> 01:15:37,300
and that is the intelligence community

1372
01:15:43,830 --> 01:15:41,869
wanted to ask you how you feel about the

1373
01:15:46,810 --> 01:15:43,840
topic of the intelligence community

1374
01:15:55,270 --> 01:15:46,820
disseminating disinformation do you have

1375
01:15:57,729 --> 01:15:55,280
a perspective on that first of all I

1376
01:15:59,500 --> 01:15:57,739
don't think almost any civilians out

1377
01:16:03,189 --> 01:15:59,510
there understand the intelligence

1378
01:16:07,990 --> 01:16:03,199
community in with and what it does and

1379
01:16:11,740 --> 01:16:08,000
what the complexities are there are you

1380
01:16:15,580 --> 01:16:11,750
know disinformation you do at times try

1381
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:15,590
to convince particularly an adversary

1382
01:16:21,790 --> 01:16:19,610
that you're you may be doing something

1383
01:16:25,859 --> 01:16:21,800
or not doing something and provide them

1384
01:16:30,430 --> 01:16:25,869
information that takes a long direction

1385
01:16:34,330 --> 01:16:30,440
a lot of issues in cover story it gets

1386
01:16:37,020 --> 01:16:34,340
into very very sensitive areas because

1387
01:16:39,490 --> 01:16:37,030
you really don't like to use them I

1388
01:16:41,649 --> 01:16:39,500
mentioned when we talked yesterday I was

1389
01:16:45,010 --> 01:16:41,659
also had gone to a psychological

1390
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:45,020
approach in school and you talk about

1391
01:16:53,530 --> 01:16:47,690
you know white black and gray

1392
01:16:55,990 --> 01:16:53,540
psyops and the problem with black psyops

1393
01:16:59,560 --> 01:16:56,000
if you will is he almost always comes

1394
01:17:02,229 --> 01:16:59,570
back and bite you and you've got to

1395
01:17:06,250 --> 01:17:02,239
before you do things like that you've

1396
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:06,260
got to think about the consequences not

1397
01:17:11,620 --> 01:17:08,449
just immediately but you know what's

1398
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:11,630
going to happen in the future

1399
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:15,050
CIA had gotten in trouble men you know

1400
01:17:21,490 --> 01:17:17,449
number of years ago where they were

1401
01:17:26,470 --> 01:17:21,500
planting stories outside the US but the

1402
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:26,480
problem was that it was getting into the

1403
01:17:37,209 --> 01:17:29,810
American press cycle and is technically

1404
01:17:43,669 --> 01:17:37,219
illegal to use black psyops

1405
01:17:47,290 --> 01:17:43,679
American citizens say things don't don't

1406
01:17:50,150 --> 01:17:47,300
happen fire more what you find is

1407
01:17:54,140 --> 01:17:50,160
misunderstanding the actual data as

1408
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:54,150
opposed to intentionally misleading

1409
01:17:58,820 --> 01:17:56,850
folks with I don't you want to do

1410
01:18:02,810 --> 01:17:58,830
chemtrails or something that happens to

1411
01:18:06,970 --> 01:18:02,820
pop in the mind I just did a program DEP

1412
01:18:11,180 --> 01:18:06,980
miss log on that and they got gained and

1413
01:18:13,330 --> 01:18:11,190
recently as today the people they were

1414
01:18:16,610 --> 01:18:13,340
pictures and saying although that's

1415
01:18:19,189 --> 01:18:16,620
chemtrails you know it's station and

1416
01:18:23,060 --> 01:18:19,199
people say well it must dissipate

1417
01:18:27,439 --> 01:18:23,070
quickly and all that no very the time

1418
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:27,449
and it is one of the it was very

1419
01:18:34,010 --> 01:18:31,650
interesting phenomena to me not because

1420
01:18:36,410 --> 01:18:34,020
the chemtrails themselves and by the way

1421
01:18:39,050 --> 01:18:36,420
to do any of the things that are

1422
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:39,060
proposed you're probably talking

1423
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:42,210
hundreds of thousands of people that

1424
01:18:50,870 --> 01:18:47,489
would have to be involved and but it's

1425
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:50,880
more interesting as to I would not have

1426
01:18:59,510 --> 01:18:53,010
run invariant telling these people who

1427
01:19:03,080 --> 01:18:59,520
are absolutely convinced is real so the

1428
01:19:07,310 --> 01:19:03,090
interesting facet to me is the

1429
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:07,320
complexity human belief as opposed to

1430
01:19:12,890 --> 01:19:10,170
you know local intervention from the sky

1431
01:19:17,990 --> 01:19:12,900
which by the way it would be a terrible

1432
01:19:21,620 --> 01:19:18,000
way to introduce chemicals or some kind

1433
01:19:23,930 --> 01:19:21,630
of it I wanted to ask you about a

1434
01:19:26,630 --> 01:19:23,940
certain topic that is called non-lethal

1435
01:19:28,340 --> 01:19:26,640
weapons can you fill us in a little bit

1436
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:28,350
on that topic because not a lot of

1437
01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:31,890
people know about it yeah actually they

1438
01:19:39,380 --> 01:19:35,370
do that maybe not quite nothing I mean

1439
01:19:39,770 --> 01:19:39,390
also almost everybody knows about tasers

1440
01:19:50,650 --> 01:19:39,780
or

1441
01:19:56,590 --> 01:19:50,660
within that and that certainly I'm a

1442
01:19:59,290 --> 01:19:56,600
woman crowd control I wrote future war

1443
01:20:01,780 --> 01:19:59,300
which was the first book because this is

1444
01:20:04,510 --> 01:20:01,790
a topic that I developed from a military

1445
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:04,520
perspective I was the first one to do it

1446
01:20:10,660 --> 01:20:08,050
sir first book that was out there and

1447
01:20:14,020 --> 01:20:10,670
that's sort of what I call the low end

1448
01:20:16,690 --> 01:20:14,030
stuff the high end would be how do you

1449
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:16,700
take on like complex target set like a

1450
01:20:23,170 --> 01:20:19,250
nation-state and reduce the

1451
01:20:25,540 --> 01:20:23,180
infrastructure so that you can impose

1452
01:20:27,670 --> 01:20:25,550
your will what I say you know many

1453
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:27,680
people think that war is about killing

1454
01:20:34,060 --> 01:20:30,410
and I say no war is about in position

1455
01:20:38,530 --> 01:20:34,070
will and killing people will can be

1456
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:38,540
detrimental in the long run a LeMans

1457
01:20:45,700 --> 01:20:41,210
example where you have big families with

1458
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:45,710
long memories and you really don't want

1459
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:48,890
to actuate a cycle of violence on the

1460
01:20:55,330 --> 01:20:51,770
other hand you do want to be able to on

1461
01:20:57,610 --> 01:20:55,340
occasion impose will and if I want to

1462
01:21:00,210 --> 01:20:57,620
disable the country then going after the

1463
01:21:04,110 --> 01:21:00,220
infrastructure there's a way to do that

1464
01:21:07,330 --> 01:21:04,120
but a critical aspect of that is that

1465
01:21:09,490 --> 01:21:07,340
yeah I want to be able to bring down you

1466
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:09,500
know electrical grid for a lot of talk

1467
01:21:17,110 --> 01:21:13,010
now about of course computers and things

1468
01:21:18,850 --> 01:21:17,120
of that nature but the critical issue is

1469
01:21:20,740 --> 01:21:18,860
being able to bring it back up again

1470
01:21:25,630 --> 01:21:20,750
because you don't want to have secondary

1471
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:25,640
or tertiary casualties do you consider

1472
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:32,290
disinformation a non-lethal weapon okay

1473
01:21:37,530 --> 01:21:34,970
um John I wanted to bring up John

1474
01:21:40,660 --> 01:21:37,540
Hutchison and the controversial

1475
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:40,670
Hutchinson effect I guess George

1476
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:43,370
Hathaway and another Canadian showed you

1477
01:21:47,350 --> 01:21:45,050
a film that was really weird regarding

1478
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:47,360
Hutchinson's work and he had looked at

1479
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:49,250
Hutchinson had looked at the work of

1480
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:52,130
Nikola Tesla and my understanding is he

1481
01:21:55,540 --> 01:21:53,690
noticed what was on the workbench of

1482
01:21:56,390 --> 01:21:55,550
Tesla and tried to replicate what he had

1483
01:21:59,270 --> 01:21:56,400
among others

1484
01:22:01,669 --> 01:21:59,280
and went from there and when he looked

1485
01:22:04,340 --> 01:22:01,679
at that film regarding Hutchinson's

1486
01:22:07,370 --> 01:22:04,350
effect there were items Levitz leading

1487
01:22:09,950 --> 01:22:07,380
accelerating filling a range of effects

1488
01:22:12,080 --> 01:22:09,960
and then you paid them to recreate the

1489
01:22:14,290 --> 01:22:12,090
situation but it was a nightmare of a

1490
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:14,300
project is that correct

1491
01:22:24,500 --> 01:22:18,810
no entirely but most of the prop was

1492
01:22:27,560 --> 01:22:24,510
that it was the discovery was you know

1493
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:27,570
kind of accidental and B are various

1494
01:22:31,910 --> 01:22:29,730
versions and George and I have talked

1495
01:22:37,399 --> 01:22:31,920
about that clear and so on the

1496
01:22:40,010 --> 01:22:37,409
explanation I got from John and he's

1497
01:22:42,500 --> 01:22:40,020
terribly complex fellow and certainly

1498
01:22:46,850 --> 01:22:42,510
doing something we have no idea what it

1499
01:22:52,790 --> 01:22:46,860
is but it's certainly real effects but

1500
01:22:56,390 --> 01:22:52,800
this late seventies is some sometime in

1501
01:22:58,850 --> 01:22:56,400
their early eighties and the length that

1502
01:23:00,620 --> 01:22:58,860
he was living in Vancouver and you're

1503
01:23:04,220 --> 01:23:00,630
right about how he was going about

1504
01:23:07,610 --> 01:23:04,230
things but he likes Sparks and he would

1505
01:23:10,220 --> 01:23:07,620
have Tesla coils and Jacob's Ladder and

1506
01:23:12,820 --> 01:23:10,230
he'd like to sit there and again the

1507
01:23:16,010 --> 01:23:12,830
story told me sitting there in the dark

1508
01:23:18,890 --> 01:23:16,020
watching Sparks and something hits him

1509
01:23:20,780 --> 01:23:18,900
and so he picks it up and throws it back

1510
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:20,790
across the room and it flies out and

1511
01:23:25,490 --> 01:23:23,730
hits him again and that's when he

1512
01:23:30,919 --> 01:23:25,500
discovered there was some kind of field

1513
01:23:32,930 --> 01:23:30,929
being generated that led to which film

1514
01:23:35,780 --> 01:23:32,940
you've seen there are quite a few out

1515
01:23:39,020 --> 01:23:35,790
there but the original one we saw I had

1516
01:23:42,050 --> 01:23:39,030
things like he's dead locating and all

1517
01:23:45,290 --> 01:23:42,060
that and one of the issues was weren't

1518
01:23:51,380 --> 01:23:45,300
all metal so wasn't is a electromagnetic

1519
01:23:55,820 --> 01:23:51,390
effect per se one one I remember the two

1520
01:23:58,459 --> 01:23:55,830
pieces of wood with a retro file in it

1521
01:24:01,939 --> 01:23:58,469
and for people who know that's a file

1522
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:01,949
it's probably about its round as your

1523
01:24:07,070 --> 01:24:04,290
little finger and was running across

1524
01:24:09,860 --> 01:24:07,080
between the two pieces of wood and what

1525
01:24:14,230 --> 01:24:09,870
you see is the file

1526
01:24:17,270 --> 01:24:14,240
turn and glows and all of a sudden just

1527
01:24:23,540 --> 01:24:17,280
disintegrates just like the filament in

1528
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:23,550
a old light bulb if you will and Alex

1529
01:24:30,530 --> 01:24:26,370
Pizarro was the guy who was helping in

1530
01:24:34,640 --> 01:24:30,540
Thailand said they reach in Italy after

1531
01:24:37,010 --> 01:24:34,650
this and it cold even look like it had

1532
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:37,020
extreme heat and we also know there was

1533
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:41,130
no scorching of the would think so one

1534
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:43,410
of the problems was that there was those

1535
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:47,970
wire injure effects and just couldn't

1536
01:24:56,810 --> 01:24:54,170
control it I did fun job to replicate

1537
01:24:59,590 --> 01:24:56,820
what he had done he got you got kicked

1538
01:25:02,210 --> 01:24:59,600
out a lot of things that was happening

1539
01:25:07,190 --> 01:25:02,220
again the old days where you know TV

1540
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:07,200
went through the air oh my and he was

1541
01:25:15,260 --> 01:25:10,650
doing these things in the basement of a

1542
01:25:20,150 --> 01:25:15,270
residential area and TV watchers were

1543
01:25:23,410 --> 01:25:20,160
not amused that's amazing I wanted to

1544
01:25:26,270 --> 01:25:23,420
also mention something interesting about

1545
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:26,280
John Hutchinson and my understanding is

1546
01:25:32,510 --> 01:25:29,970
that John still to this day according to

1547
01:25:35,090 --> 01:25:32,520
you has strange things happen him some

1548
01:25:36,620 --> 01:25:35,100
of the material you saw also from him

1549
01:25:39,110 --> 01:25:36,630
was from the junkyard that he acquired

1550
01:25:41,630 --> 01:25:39,120
made from various materials and some of

1551
01:25:43,850 --> 01:25:41,640
these materials were pulverized another

1552
01:25:48,470 --> 01:25:43,860
lit up and instead of it the object

1553
01:25:52,730 --> 01:25:48,480
being white hot it was cold well one of

1554
01:25:57,080 --> 01:25:52,740
the things there was one very drive

1555
01:26:01,940 --> 01:25:57,090
shaft yeah I remember this guy was on

1556
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:01,950
poverty wages and his approach was a

1557
01:26:09,620 --> 01:26:04,770
little big load of junk shops and pick

1558
01:26:13,250 --> 01:26:09,630
up stuff and and so this is generally

1559
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:13,260
you know my high quality thing again we

1560
01:26:18,590 --> 01:26:15,330
remember we're talking nineteen eighties

1561
01:26:20,840 --> 01:26:18,600
who fall quite a bit since then but what

1562
01:26:23,330 --> 01:26:20,850
I'm gonna say is they had a drive shaft

1563
01:26:27,859 --> 01:26:23,340
that was exposed to the

1564
01:26:31,939 --> 01:26:27,869
feel and took at the BC Hydro to be

1565
01:26:35,540 --> 01:26:31,949
tested and the same piece of tested as

1566
01:26:40,189 --> 01:26:35,550
case hardened steel at one and softest

1567
01:26:43,300 --> 01:26:40,199
LED on the other and so obviously ten at

1568
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:43,310
P BC that literally pulverized and

1569
01:26:50,390 --> 01:26:45,570
disappeared you had all the things that

1570
01:26:54,109 --> 01:26:50,400
fly out yeah but there was at least that

1571
01:26:56,240 --> 01:26:54,119
point of no single effect and again the

1572
01:26:59,839 --> 01:26:56,250
lack of control and the ability to study

1573
01:27:01,850 --> 01:26:59,849
it it almost sounds like you know when

1574
01:27:06,500 --> 01:27:01,860
we talked about earlier the precognitive

1575
01:27:09,890 --> 01:27:06,510
shake it just kept morphing that is

1576
01:27:11,629 --> 01:27:09,900
fascinating i wanted to also we're gonna

1577
01:27:13,339 --> 01:27:11,639
wrap this up here but i wanted to let

1578
01:27:15,200 --> 01:27:13,349
everybody know a little bit about

1579
01:27:17,419 --> 01:27:15,210
yourself just a little bit more and that

1580
01:27:20,030 --> 01:27:17,429
is that you are a retired senior

1581
01:27:22,550 --> 01:27:20,040
military officer with 32 years

1582
01:27:24,500 --> 01:27:22,560
experience and a proponent of military

1583
01:27:26,899 --> 01:27:24,510
interest in the paranormal you're the

1584
01:27:29,870 --> 01:27:26,909
author of reality denied with a foreword

1585
01:27:31,399 --> 01:27:29,880
by regular Huli person frank and i have

1586
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:31,409
had the pleasure you know you're

1587
01:27:37,669 --> 01:27:35,280
interviewing and your other books future

1588
01:27:40,430 --> 01:27:37,679
war with the foreword by Tom Clancy and

1589
01:27:43,790 --> 01:27:40,440
also UFOs myths conspiracies and

1590
01:27:45,979 --> 01:27:43,800
realities and in 89 you authored the new

1591
01:27:48,649 --> 01:27:45,989
mental battlefield published in military

1592
01:27:50,870 --> 01:27:48,659
review a science related journal we are

1593
01:27:54,100 --> 01:27:50,880
so grateful you came on our show today

1594
01:27:55,459 --> 01:27:54,110
John thank you thanks so much thank you

1595
01:27:57,649 --> 01:27:55,469
thank you

1596
01:27:59,479 --> 01:27:57,659
my understanding by the way is that you

1597
01:28:01,520 --> 01:27:59,489
do have an interview tomorrow do you

1598
01:28:03,589 --> 01:28:01,530
mind mentioning or who that will be with

1599
01:28:08,899 --> 01:28:03,599
and what time it will be out so folks

1600
01:28:12,290 --> 01:28:08,909
can tune in local as ke NPR the national

1601
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:12,300
NPR station George Knapp and I at nine

1602
01:28:17,330 --> 01:28:14,130
o'clock the program called state of

1603
01:28:21,229 --> 01:28:17,340
Nevada and remember you talk about UFOs

1604
01:28:22,939 --> 01:28:21,239
again that's fantastic wonderful well we

1605
01:28:24,950 --> 01:28:22,949
really appreciate your discretionary

1606
01:28:26,870 --> 01:28:24,960
time and we look forward to having the

1607
01:28:30,709 --> 01:28:26,880
opportunity to interviewing you in the

1608
01:28:33,589 --> 01:28:30,719
future yeah thank you no thank you very

1609
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:33,599
much thanks John and that's it for

1610
01:28:38,870 --> 01:28:36,449
tonight everybody yeah and we will be